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Model Forum / General / Models / June 2009Electrical problem
Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit with four small fluorescent lamps. Of late, when I switch these lamps off, the circuit breaker has been coming out. The lamps work normally and there is no problem when I switch on - only when I switch off.. Any ideas ? Jim Lugsden __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com On 19 June, 22:11, "James Lugsden" <james.lugs...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house > is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.eset.com i would replace the switch ..cheap and simple to do .. may have crap in it ..causing arcing and may cure the problem for good. if it don't ..then others more knowledgeable than me will answer. all the best.markj > Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house > is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.eset.com Inductive spike from the choke inducing an earth current - the main rcd sees an imbalance. Your workshop is a long way down the garden, do you export the house earth, or do you have a separate earth spike down there? AWEM > Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house > is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit > with four small fluorescent lamps. Of late, when I switch these lamps > off, the circuit breaker has been coming out. The lamps work normally > and there is no problem when I switch on - only when I switch off.. Any > ideas ? Jim Lugsden Firstly let me say I'm no electrician. I too suffer from the same problem on occasion, but only when the lamp units have become damp in certain climatic conditions - I just live with it. However, it's my understanding that lighting circuits don't need RCD protection, so can you re-wire around the problem? Failing that if you wire the lights via a couple of switches, so you don't have to power them up all in one hit, then that should help with spikes and surges etc.... Julian. Thanks for all the gen,chaps, it would seem that I am not the only one with the problem. The workshop's earthed from the house via the long overhead cable ,Andrew, and via an additional earth pin in the ground at the workshop end. Its been like this for over a year without a problem 'till a couple of weeks ago The whole system is protected by the earth trip so I can't isolate the lights,Julian. One good thing has come out of the investigation though. On looking in the consumer unit to check the earth (or earths) I found a cooked fuse holder ,unblown fuse but with a very burnt holder. Presumably the screw was loose on the wire. It's not on the light circuit so I can't see that it caused the problem, but as my dad used to say "Electricity is funny stuff " Regards to All, Jim >> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My >> house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com > Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house > is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit > with four small fluorescent lamps. Of late, when I switch these lamps > off, the circuit breaker has been coming out. The lamps work normally > and there is no problem when I switch on - only when I switch off.. Any > ideas ? Jim Lugsden At least you know how to trip it ;) I've been getting the power tripping a couple of times a week and having now unhooked most things there is not a lot left other than the armoured cable going down and the earth spike :( It least it is on a separate ELCB to the rest of the house.  SignatureLester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php >> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My house >> is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a circuit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >cable going down and the earth spike :( >It least it is on a separate ELCB to the rest of the house. I was uunintentionally up at 4.30 this morning after I noticed the power tripped out during the night. Not sure what did it but it's annoying. However, It has been apparant over the past 12 months or so that the laptop power supplies (and we have 4 laptops in the house) frequently trip either the MCB or RCD or sometimes both when they are switched on. Peter >> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My >> house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cable going down and the earth spike :( > It least it is on a separate ELCB to the rest of the house. I wonder about ''upgrading'' to a 100mA trip? I'm sure my 30mA RCD is just too hair trigger when feeding a number of circuits. https://securehost9.zen.co.uk/brewtime/product-detail.asp?d=1405 Never had this silly problem years ago before these things existed and the safety Nazis ruled the roost! Julian. >>> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My >>> house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Never had this silly problem years ago before these things existed and the > safety Nazis ruled the roost! I'm not sure that you can use a 100mA RCD unless there are downstream 30mA breakers. As the link above says, it provides "limited protection against electric shock", which actually means "bugger all". 100mA is just about the right current to induce fibrillation in your heart muscle, more often than not fatal unless you have a defibrillator. Under about 50mA and you're most likely OK with no side effects, above a couple of hundred mA your heart stops, but it stops cleanly and sometimes be restarted with CPR. The middle ground is the most dangerous. You might as well take it out, really. Nobby (Electronic Engineer, but not Electrician so not familiar with the regulations that might apply, but some knowledge of electric shocks) >>>> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My >>>> house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >You might as well take it out, really. What, your heart??!! Oh, I get you.... David SignatureDavid Littlewood > >>>> Can anyone help with advice on a peculiar electrical problem? My > >>>> house is fitted with an earth trip breaker. In the workshop, I have a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > David I'm eyeless and you're legless but Jim isn't heartless <G> AWEM >I wonder about ''upgrading'' to a 100mA trip? I'm sure my 30mA RCD is just >too hair trigger when feeding a number of circuits. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Julian. That would be a bad idea. Better would be to segregate the circuits so that you could use more 30mA RCDs. A 100mA RCD doesn't give satisfactory shock protection. The Regs say that if more than one device with a leakage current of more than 3.5mA is to be used, the circuits must be arranged so that tripping does not occur. even with switch-on transients. If this cannot be achieved then an isolating transformer must be used for the equipment. (607-07-01) In other Regs, the requirements for circuits with high leakage current (10mA or more) are quite draconian and just wouldn't work in a domestic or shed situation. There's a lot of IT kit around that just leaks too much from its mains filters. What happened to the days of plugging the iron into the light socket? :-) Mark Rand RTFM > >I wonder about ''upgrading'' to a 100mA trip? I'm sure my 30mA RCD is just > >too hair trigger when feeding a number of circuits. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Mark Rand > RTFM In my opinion 30mA RCDs are there for your safety, and the 100mA ones are for the safety of the installation - particularly fire hazard from a prolonged leakage. AWEM >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:37:10 +0100, "Julian" <jps@supanet.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >In my opinion 30mA RCDs are there for your safety The point, of course, is that if the 30mA RCDs become such a monumental pain in the arse that the only workable choice is to circumvent them, then anyone with the ability will do so. At which point you might as well have a 100A supply wired directly. Trying to remove the last 0.000000000000001% of risk at the expense of the first 99.999999999999999% is just bloody stupid. And when the Powers That Be get that message I, for one, will rejoice. The champagne is (at present) not on ice. SignatureNigel When the only tools you have are an X3 mill, a Colchester and assorted other stuff, every problem looks like a steam engine. >The point, of course, is that if the 30mA RCDs become such a monumental >pain in the arse that the only workable choice is to circumvent them, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >The champagne is (at present) not on ice. I certainly sympathise with that. The underlying philosophy seems to be everywhere, but particularly in the present practice for earthing everything in sight; my own personal pet hate is central heating radiators - usually plumed in copper to boot. (Oh and bloody kitchen sinks!) When the hell did you last hear of someone being electrocuted by a radiator that had mysteriously suddenly became live FFS! </rant> Richard >> The point, of course, is that if the 30mA RCDs become such a monumental >> pain in the arse that the only workable choice is to circumvent them, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Richard > I agree to some extent but do know someone that got shocks off there central heating system. A section of their central heating become live due to improper earthing and mods. Someone had replaced a section of copper with plastic and hadn't earthed the newly isolated copper section. Due to another problem the isolated section came into contact with live mains and as no earth was present the RCD wasn't tripped. No one was injured in this case and the fault was found and fixed but it does show why some of the requirements exist. >> The point, of course, is that if the 30mA RCDs become such a monumental >> pain in the arse that the only workable choice is to circumvent them, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Richard First things first, i'm a Power Electronics Engineer, and I have attended during my career numerous safety training seminars. During one of these I was told once that a six year old girl had to physically blow a 13 amp fuse in a standard lamp which had not been earthed, and the brasswork had become directly live because her dear old loving grandad had'nt bothered to wire it properly and the live pole insulation had been nicked during re-assembly of the lamp. The thickness of the carpet had provided enough insuation for the potential at the lamp not to be noticed ordinarily. She was playing hide and seek behind a sofa, and got across from the Lamp to a Radiator. I bet the smell was truly abhorrent. Some of you guys take what I can only describe as a cavalier attitude. I'm honestly surprised some of you are still alive. These nuisance RCD trips you all speak of so you all derogatorily would have more than likely saved the poor little sods life. I expect some or all of you will flame me but this is from experience of knowing how dangerous this stuff can be when it's out of control. Rob. >>I wonder about ''upgrading'' to a 100mA trip? I'm sure my 30mA RCD is just >>too hair trigger when feeding a number of circuits. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Better would be to segregate the circuits so that you could use more 30mA > RCDs. A 100mA RCD doesn't give satisfactory shock protection. With some circuits this would be easy as I think you can get RCDs that will substitute directly the MCBs in modern distribution boxes? However part of the system is wired via an old style fuse box that has the fuse wire holders replaced with MCBs - I'm not aware if MCB/RCB combo jobbies are available to suit. However if I could work around the problem then I could junk the RCD on the incomer and replace with an MCB and then protect the other circuits individually. But a lot of work for half a dozen false trips per year.... Would I need to protect the lighting circuits via a RCD? I have metal clad switches around the place. > The Regs say that if more than one device with a leakage current of more > than [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What happened to the days of plugging the iron into the light socket? :-) Indeed. As a yuff I gave myself quite a few mains shocks by accident when mucking around. Perhaps the worst was when I switched on a light via a metal clad switch which was being washed by water due to burst water pipes - It was dark and I hadn't spotted the water. Anyway, my hand and arm was rendered sore and movement a bit hard for a few hours. No harm done though, I'm sure the threat from electric shock is overstated - safety Nazis and equipment manufacturers have too much vested interest. Julian. >Indeed. As a yuff I gave myself quite a few mains shocks by accident when >mucking around. Perhaps the worst was when I switched on a light via a metal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I'm sure the threat from electric shock is overstated - safety Nazis and >equipment manufacturers have too much vested interest. it's all down to where the electricity goes. very little electeicity in the heart will kill you. Trouble is, preciting the path the electricity will take through the body isn't too easy, so you have a 30mA RCD becasue that means the current is small enough that even if it does hit your heart, you should survive. I to have hade several belts of the 240V over the years. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! |
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