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Model Forum / General / Models / July 2009Royal Enfiedl Question
Just what is a "Royal enfield"? > Just what is a "Royal enfield"? Google not working tonight? lol It is a motorised bicycle like these http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=royal+enfield&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2 Bob > Just what is a "Royal enfield"? It was a British Motorcycle company which is now being made in India. The company logo was "Built like a gun" after the Enfield rifle division of the group, it was also one of the most truthful logo's ever produced. Some companies had "The fastest motorcycle " and "Handles like a dream" [ never mention if it was a wet dream ] but Enfields were very trueful in their description as if you were one of the unfortunate owners it was sure to go bang at some point. As an aside under the Enfield badge on the tank were a number of patents held by the company one of these was the same patent number that the Torrey Canyon was built under, a not unsurprising revelation given that Enfields leaked oil where there were no joints. John S. >> Just what is a "Royal enfield"? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > John S. That's what I thought - but my Dad insists it's where Prince Charles keeps 'is 'ens... > Just what is a "Royal enfield"? Hi Steve, Got ask, why are you asking. And to JohnS, seem to remember Enfields leaked a, because of hamfisted owners b, because of wet sumps (not wet dreams) c, because the owners made the mistake of starting their bikes and/or leaving them parked! T.W. >c, because the owners >made the mistake of starting their bikes and/or leaving them parked! I suppose they never leaked oil on the drive while you had the engine in bits on the kitchen table ;-) Regards, Tony > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT), the wizard > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Regards, > Tony How true, transfered the oily mess to the kitchen. I am sure they were not called Royal Oilfield for nothing. Having poked fun at them, I saw a new Indian electric start model at the Chiltern Traction Rally yesterday that was 'dry', and it started first press of button and ticked over nicely. What are the Indians doing right that we Brits couldn't do? Any suggestions? T.W. Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality control. It's all clearly laid out in ISO 9000. You can follow the principles of the system that has been brought into disrepute by excessive paperwork. The basis is quite simple. Listen to what your customers say and act upon it. Put your problems right when the occur and make notes about it so it doesn't happen again. Sort your specifications out and work to them. Let people know clearly what is required of them. Make sure your suppliers supply what you want. Not too difficult really. All this was understood in the 60's in the UK but we as a manufacturing nation were too arrogant to follow it. Unions were too clever by half and management were too complacent by a similar margin. Harrumph. >Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality >control. >It's all clearly laid out in ISO 9000. Quite simple really, Bollocks. The ISO 9000 series of standards are about documenting business processes, and ensuring that the business adheres to those processes. However, in practice, they have nothing to say about how good or bad those processes might be. So ISO 9000 certification tells you ONLY that the company has documented processes in place; those processes might be total cr@p, but at least they are certified cr@p. Regards, Tony >Quite simple really, Bollocks. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Regards, >Tony Yep, that just about sums it up. Lost count of the number of big companies that we deal with, that have fallen foul of their human staff's inability to live with the 'system'. Peter -- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK peterforbes@prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.co.uk http://www.prepair.eu > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 00:30:56 -0700 (PDT), Andy Cawley > > <a...@nashman.co.uk> wrote: > >Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality > Quite simple really, Bollocks. > Regards, > Tony Oh dearie me. Tony, you and several other posters have fallen in to the trap of not reading what I wrote and were blinded by the dread words ISO 9000. Read what I said again. "Listen to what your customers say and act upon it". __ If all manufacturers did that life would be good wouldn't it? "Put your problems right when the occur and make notes about it so it doesn't happen again"". ----- Pretty sensible really we cant always be expected to remember every thing. Notes can mean any thing for example a revised drawing that explains what should be done and so on. "Sort your specifications out and work to them". --- Surely you cant rant at that . "Let people know clearly what is required of them". --- If you don't do this and do it consistently and make it self checking you will go nowhere fast. "Make sure your suppliers supply what you want". --- You wouldn't do otherwise would you. One of the other things that I did not mention was that you must investigate complaints honestly and involve all the appropriate people so that they know what is going on and put them right. Not too difficult really. The original question was what are the Indians doing right that Royal Enfield didn't seem to get the hang of. I said "applying quality control" Believe it or not all this is enshrined in ISO 9000. The problem with the standard is that is is over clerical in its application and that it has been put in because "management" said so and gave little thought to what it really meant. Its a bit like religions; really they have good moral basic rules that are interpreted by frail humans that result in the bigotry and chaos we see in the world to-day and yesterday. >Believe it or not all this is enshrined in ISO 9000. The problem with >the standard is that is is over clerical in its application and that >it has been put in because "management" said so and gave little >thought to what it really meant. All very fine words; however, the point of what I (and others) wrote is that they are at the end of the day just empty words for the very reasons you state; the only words in the document that have teeth are the ones that lead directly to the "overly clerical application" that you allude to. The standard could have been written in such a way as to emphasize (and offer approaches/requirements for measuring) the worthy principles that you listed; the fact is that they weren't, hence the result is an utterly useless, and I would argue ultimately destructive, contribution to a world already overburdened with bureaucratic BS. Regards, Tony >> Believe it or not all this is enshrined in ISO 9000. The problem with >> the standard is that is is over clerical in its application and that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > destructive, contribution to a world already overburdened with > bureaucratic BS. Seconded There is NOTHING enshrined in ISO9000 that provides a guide line to actually PRODUCE good quality products, only ensure that the processes are in place that can repeat the same mistakes time after time ;) There is actually no requirement to FIX the mistakes :(  SignatureLester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > >> Believe it or not all this is enshrined in ISO 9000. The problem with > >> the standard is that is is over clerical in its application and that [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL That is the function of management. Dont shoot the messenger. The Indians are managing their quality; I never said that they had installed an ISO 9000, merely that the principles of quality management lurked therein. > The Indians are managing their quality; I never said that they had > installed an ISO 9000, merely that the principles of quality > management lurked therein. True they are and probably they have never heard of ISO 9000, last time I checked at the local Indian the menu topped out at 7756 items, nowhere close to 9000 John S. > Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality > control. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Harrumph. Where in Bullshit 9000 does it say "Listen to what your customers say and act upon it. " The fact that in the last 40 years we have made many technically advances has nothing to do with it ? TW remarked that he saw one that started instantly on the touch of a button, in that case all we needed 40 years ago was to list the supplier who could supply batteries and starter motors that weighed less than 900 pounds and were reliable. Fact is Bullshit 9000 does not document technical specifications and design, only the documenting and reporting of it. John S. >> Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality >> control. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > John S. They needed updated designs all round, that worked in the real world! The late great P.E. Irving himself stated that a 60 watt alternator was sufficient for a motorcycle. Never mind that in North America, 60/40 watt headlights were standard, and required by law in some jurisdictions. Those old 24 watt headlights were a very bad joke! It was only when the 12 volt electrical systems came out, the there was enough power to light a headlight, tail light, and a little to charge the battery. Even then it was marginal! Steve R. > Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality > control. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Harrumph. Seriously, I agree! The British motorcycle industry was the instrument of it's own destruction. Steve R. >> Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality >> control. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Steve R. That may well be true but BS9000 would not have saved them. I used to work for the first electronics research establishment to be granted ISO 9000 accreditation way back. Although we made not attempt to pull the wool over the assessors eyes, they had not the first idea about our business and the methods we adopted and so could not judge how appropriate our processes were. In essence we had a whole raft of documented processes with a top level document that said that the project manager could pick which were appropriate from one job to another. He then had to show throughout the work that they were adhered to. All it did was to mean more of the funding was spent on paperwork rather than useful research, we had to print all new stationery including notebooks with page numbers and we could no longer write in pencil in our these. This last change was the only recommendation that they made. Complete waste of time. Bob > > "Andy Cawley" <andy@nashman.co.uk> wrote in message news:64fbfb40-8e9e-492c-ba99-06880cc50f43@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... > >> Quite simple really, they are applying the basics of god quality > >> control. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Bob ISO9000 and ISO9001 were renamed versions of BS5750 - I was involved in getting a service organisation through the hoops to become BS5750 accredited (as BT wouldn't continue to trade unless we did!!). In essence all that was needed was to document the process that you followed, then demonstrate that you followed it. There was absolutely no need to have a good process in the technical sense. Assessments consisted of checking all processes were documented, and that there was a audit trail that we did infact follow the documented process. AWEM > ISO9000 and ISO9001 were renamed versions of BS5750 - I was involved > in getting a service organisation through the hoops to become BS5750 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > consisted of checking all processes were documented, and that there > was a audit trail that we did infact follow the documented process. Ah but think of the impact it makes in your company adverts! "We are an ISO 9001 company" At least that seems to have been the thinking with the marketing departments of many companies. Henry >> ISO9000 and ISO9001 were renamed versions of BS5750 - I was involved >> in getting a service organisation through the hoops to become BS5750 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Henry I went through two ISO 9000's in 1 year at different companies. The first time management failed to mention the smaller office 100 yards down the road so it just wasn't counted, the second time the ISO guy came to speak to two of us in the sales department, but as we were both on the phone he waited 45 minutes then got bored and left. Fortunately he didn't notice we were on the phone to each other. > >> ISO9000 and ISO9001 were renamed versions of BS5750 - I was involved > >> in getting a service organisation through the hoops to become BS5750 [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - Show quoted text - so what is it .. ok youve explained what it is but is iso9000 standard kept alive by some kwango company ..that you have to pay.........then if it is ......i see what it's all about . all the best.markj > > >> ISO9000 and ISO9001 were renamed versions of BS5750 - I was involved > > >> in getting a service organisation through the hoops to become BS5750 [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - meant quangos .........some call themselves trade associations look at this :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5761268/British- businesses-associated-with-134-unelected-quangos.html all the best.markj >so what is it .. >ok youve explained what it is > >but is iso9000 standard kept alive by some kwango company ..that you >have to pay.........then if it is ......i see what it's all about . It is kept alive by the certification companies that sprang up when the standard got published & the bandwaggon started to roll, and the client companies that still think it is a good idea. As someone else mentioned in this thread, many companies demanded ISO 9000 accreditation in order to do business with suppliers, and some still do. The more enlightened cos have by now figured out that it was mostly snake oil, smoke & mirrors anyway. Regards, Tony > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:41:16 -0700 (PDT), mark > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Regards, > Tony Yup thought it was something like that . like the LPGA........ self proclaimed regulators of businesses converting cars to lpg.........trying desperately to be recognised by the government as a going concern ..while infact they do little to regulate bad conversions....but like taking £hundreds plus off the converters........and trying to convince the insurance companies that there is something special about their certificates phoned another government dept quango up today ....call themselves Economic Development ...part of Denbighshire County Council .......40 staff !!!!...just for denbighshire the only economic development they are doing is amongst themselves by the looks of things ! all the best.markj >> so what is it .. >> ok youve explained what it is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > do. The more enlightened cos have by now figured out that it was > mostly snake oil, smoke & mirrors anyway. ISO9000 ( and the BS before it ) was never about quality. Ratners could continue producing 'crap' and still be fully certified - it was simply certified that they produced the same crap day in day out :) The Australians seem to have spotted this and as I understand it, are looking more to 'quality' of products than to costly papertrails that lead noware useful :( SignatureLester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php >ISO9000 ( and the BS before it ) was never about quality. Ratners could >continue producing 'crap' and still be fully certified - it was simply [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >looking more to 'quality' of products than to costly papertrails that >lead noware useful :( Dead right. The proper title is Quality Assurance. The stress is really on the Assurance, but people hear Quality and think that must be better - it ain't necessarily so! Richard On Jul 5, 10:51 pm, Tony Jeffree <t...@jeffree.co.uk> wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT), the wizard > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Regards, > Tony How true, transfered the oily mess to the kitchen. I am sure they were not called Royal Oilfield for nothing. Having poked fun at them, I saw a new Indian electric start model at the Chiltern Traction Rally yesterday that was 'dry', and it started first press of button and ticked over nicely. What are the Indians doing right that we Brits couldn't do? Any suggestions? T.W. Real gaskets? :) Steve R. On Jul 5, 9:00 pm, "Steve" <steve.withn...@btinternet.com> wrote: > Just what is a "Royal enfield"? Hi Steve, Got ask, why are you asking. And to JohnS, seem to remember Enfields leaked a, because of hamfisted owners b, because of wet sumps (not wet dreams) c, because the owners made the mistake of starting their bikes and/or leaving them parked! T.W. I seem to remember that all British motorcycles leaked oil! My old Norton Dominator certainly did! The reason Royal Enfield's were parked, was because they didn't have enough power to move. The ones sold here couldn't pull the skin off of a rice pudding! Steve R. > I seem to remember that all British motorcycles leaked oil! My old Norton > Dominator certainly did! I had an Ariel 350 'Red Hunter' and that never leaked oil but my Ducati 350 Sebring did. The Ariel had a dry sump while the Ducati had a wet sump. The difference between the oils at oil change had to be seen to be believed. The Ducatis was BLACK whilst the Ariel was clean. The Ariel was built in 1949 and the Ducati in 1971. SignatureNeil reverse ra and delete l Linux user 335851 I had an NH Ariel, first bike I ever bought, 'oil change' ?????? Seriously though folks, the Ariel had a crude form of centrifugal oi filter in the crankshaft. I hope you cleaned yours regularly, an remembered to take the spark plug cap off first. They had a nasty habi of firing when you turned the crank to get at the cup screwed into on of the flywheels. Ned Ludd Neil Wrote: > > I seem to remember that all British motorcycles leaked oil! My ol > Norton [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > reverse ra and delete l > Linux user 33585 -- ned lud > I had an NH Ariel, first bike I ever bought, 'oil change' ?????? > Seriously though folks, the Ariel had a crude form of centrifugal oil [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of the flywheels. > Ned Ludd Some people disconnected the battery thinking that would stop the spark but magnetos just don't care. SignatureNeil reverse ra and delete l Linux user 335851 > Some people disconnected the battery thinking that would stop the spark > but magnetos just don't care. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Neil > reverse ra and delete l Not half as much fun as air gunning the crankshaft pulley off a Rolls V12 Merlin and having it chase you down the shop <g> That'll teach you to fit the grounding screws to the mags. John S. > > I seem to remember that all British motorcycles leaked oil! My old Norton > > Dominator certainly did! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > reverse ra and delete l > Linux user 335851 guessing the Arial you had, was some years ago, before detergent oils came out..right All the best.markj >guessing the Arial you had, was some years ago, before detergent oils >came out..right Ariel biological detergent oils, right? ;-) Regards, Tony >>guessing the Arial you had, was some years ago, before detergent oils >>came out..right [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Regards, > Tony Heck of a job to get it into the washing machine (if we had had one). SignatureNeil reverse ra and delete l Linux user 335851 >> > I seem to remember that all British motorcycles leaked oil! My old Norton >> > Dominator certainly did! [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > All the best.markj Not some - a great many. SignatureNeil reverse ra and delete l Linux user 335851 > Just what is a "Royal enfield"? It is, or was, a motorcycle, and I had the priviledge of owning one in the 1950's. |
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