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UK supply voltage tolerance

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Julian - 03 Feb 2010 10:20 GMT
I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if one
could help please?

I've been searching the www and I've found two sets of limitations, I can't
actually decide for certain which is now correct due to the shear mass of
info out there.

I've found 230V +10/-6% (216-253)
and 230V +/-10% (207-253)

What's the correct answer? The next stage for me might be to get the
electricity supply company to install a voltage recorder, I'm suffering from
voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
(mainly heating) in the workshop.

TIA Julian.
Tony Jeffree - 03 Feb 2010 10:34 GMT
> I'm suffering from
>voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
>(mainly heating) in the workshop.

Sounds like the cabling to the workshop is too wimpy, resulting in a
voltage drop from the original supply voltage when you draw heavy
loads. Try measuring the supply voltage at your main fusebox under the
same load conditions & see what that is like - if the voltage is good
there, then its your cabling that is at fault, not the supply.

Regards,
Tony
Julian - 03 Feb 2010 10:38 GMT
>> I'm suffering from
>>voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> same load conditions & see what that is like - if the voltage is good
> there, then its your cabling that is at fault, not the supply.

I'm ahead of you on that one, the workshop is supplied with 6mm SWA and I'm
only loosing around 2 volts between dis board and workshop. Thanks for the
reply but have you an answer to my initial question?

Julian.
Tony Jeffree - 03 Feb 2010 11:51 GMT
>>> I'm suffering from
>>>voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Julian.

I believe that the situation as far as the UK supply is concerned is
that it is required to be 230 -6%/+10%, and for the rest of Europe it
is 230 -10%/+6%. This was carefully chosen for minimum impact on the
power generators and maximum impact on the equipment manufacturers
while still pretending that we have EU harmonization.

So where the 230 -10%/+10% variant that you have seen comes from is
that this is what equipment manufacturers potentially (sic) have to
handle if they are building products for the EU market.

So if the supply voltage at the company fuse is dropping below that
range (less than 216) then it is out of spec.

Regards,
Tont
Julian - 03 Feb 2010 12:04 GMT
>>>> I'm suffering from
>>>>voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> So if the supply voltage at the company fuse is dropping below that
> range (less than 216) then it is out of spec.

It was dropping below 200V last Sunday evening when the wife was cooking the
roast and I had about 6KW on in the workshop - I guess that they are allowed
to let the voltage drop below tolerance for short periods due to heavy
demand on the grid - a voltage recorder is the answer, so long as they do it
FOC!

Julian.
Lester Caine - 03 Feb 2010 12:12 GMT
>>>> I'm suffering from
>>>> voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> So if the supply voltage at the company fuse is dropping below that
> range (less than 216) then it is out of spec.

Tony - I thought the +/-10% limit came in 1st Jan 2003 - but I stand to be
corrected. My copy of the 16th Edition is pre 2003 and says it is 'due to
change' on that date.

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Lester Caine - 03 Feb 2010 12:16 GMT
>>>>> I'm suffering from
>>>>> voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads on
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> be corrected. My copy of the 16th Edition is pre 2003 and says it is
> 'due to change' on that date.

OK  - I can correct my own statement ...
The +/-10% change was postponed until 1st January 2008 - and then was postponed
indefinitely ... So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK currently ;)

Signature

Lester Caine - G8HFL
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Tony Jeffree - 03 Feb 2010 12:21 GMT
>So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK currently ;)

Yep...but as I said, if you are building product for the EU market
then your products have to handle the full +-10%.

Regards,
Tony.
Lester Caine - 03 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT
>> So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK currently ;)
>
> Yep...but as I said, if you are building product for the EU market
> then your products have to handle the full +-10%.

Most of the power packs I'm using now do 95V up ;)

Signature

Lester Caine - G8HFL
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invalid - 03 Feb 2010 13:32 GMT
>>> So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK currently ;)
>> Yep...but as I said, if you are building product for the EU market
>> then your products have to handle the full +-10%.
> Most of the power packs I'm using now do 95V up ;)

Probably switchers on the input, boosting up to 400V from
which the switcher that creates the output is driven. A ruse
to reduce the PF of the PSU, so that power is absorbed for most of the
input 50Hz waveform, thus removing the nasty harmonic spikes
caused by peak conduction of diodes that feed smoothing capacitors.
Julian - 03 Feb 2010 12:59 GMT
>>>>>> I'm suffering from
>>>>>> voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish loads
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> postponed indefinitely ... So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK currently
> ;)

Good, so I've got 'em by the short and curlies it would appear.

One of the most noticeable problems with low voltage is my old ''buzz box''
stick welder which seems to make a habit of extinguishing the arc at
random - my newer ''inverter'' style welder does not suffer this problem.
The fluorescent light tubes often extinguish and then strike up again when I
start equipment that takes a big initial surge of current like the big angle
grinder.

Julian.
Mark Rand - 03 Feb 2010 18:19 GMT
>Good, so I've got 'em by the short and curlies it would appear.

Are you single or three phase? if single phase, what are the neighbours on the
other phases seeing (eg, general low voltage or one over loaded phase)?

What is the maximum voltage you ever get? If it's below 240, a tap change may
be simple, if much above that, they may be reluctant.

6mm Pah! I've got 16mm 4 core SWA (still no 3ph though :)

Mark Rand
RTFM
Andrew Mawson - 03 Feb 2010 20:32 GMT
> >Good, so I've got 'em by the short and curlies it would appear.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Mark Rand
> RTFM

...pah! 16mm 4 core - baby stuff <G> 160 amps per phase three phase
wired in 120mm entering workshop (but the plonkers EDF have fed it
with 6mm diam (28sq mm cross section) aluminium overhead - no doubt
it'll melt some time soon!)

AWEM
Mark Rand - 03 Feb 2010 20:47 GMT
>> 6mm Pah! I've got 16mm 4 core SWA (still no 3ph though :)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>AWEM

My logic was that if I managed to use all 63A 3ph in my little shed, I
wouldn't have a shed any more, I'd have a small mushroom cloud :-)

Mark Rand
RTFM
mark@ems-fife.co.uk - 04 Feb 2010 07:32 GMT
...pah! 16mm 4 core - baby stuff <G> 160 amps per phase three phase
> wired in 120mm

> AWEM

pah! 120mm 4 core - baby stuff.

185mm - 4 core-315 amps a phase

Mark.
Andrew Mawson - 04 Feb 2010 07:51 GMT
> ...pah! 16mm 4 core - baby stuff <G> 160 amps per phase three phase
> > wired in 120mm
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark.

Swank <G>

AWEM
Charles - 04 Feb 2010 16:10 GMT
On Feb 4, 7:32 am, "m...@ems-fife.co.uk" <m...@ems-fife.co.uk> wrote:
>  ...pah! 16mm 4 core - baby stuff <G> 160 amps per phase three phase
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark.

But your factory is about 10 times the size of my house, garden,
neighbours house, their garden and the road inbetween!

Charles
Julian - 04 Feb 2010 08:49 GMT
>>Good, so I've got 'em by the short and curlies it would appear.
>
> Are you single or three phase? if single phase, what are the neighbours on
> the
> other phases seeing (eg, general low voltage or one over loaded phase)?

We are single phase. We have a single phase 11KV (I think it's 11KV)  supply
to a transformer mounted up a pole in the garden, this transformer supplies
just me and the neighbour from its single phase output. I think the root
cause of the problem is this antiquated transformer which almost certainly
dates back to the days when national grid electrickery first found it's way
out into the countryside.

> What is the maximum voltage you ever get? If it's below 240, a tap change
> may
> be simple, if much above that, they may be reluctant.

I've never seen anything like 240 volts - chance would be a fine thing :-)
I'll be contacting MANWEB on Monday morning to see what they say on the
issue.

> 6mm Pah! I've got 16mm 4 core SWA (still no 3ph though :)

I don't think the board's cable from the transformer to the meter is much
more than 6mm :-(

Regards Julian.
David Billington - 03 Feb 2010 23:30 GMT
>>>>>> I'm suffering from
>>>>>> voltage dropping down to around 200-210v when I have heavyish
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> postponed indefinitely ... So the lower limit IS 216V for the UK
> currently ;)

I've seen about 150V on my supply on one occasion for a few hours and my
neighbour has seen it some years prior to that. He took it up with the
utility the first time and their response was it couldn't happen as they
had things in place to prevent it due to the danger it could cause. I
took a reading to verify and turned off things like the fridge, most
bulbs glowed dimly, flourescents varied from dim to OK depending on
type. I ended up watching TV in the dim light as it must have had a
universal supply and was unphased.

Any ideas about the regs requiring cutoff of supply in low voltage
conditions.
Mark Rand - 03 Feb 2010 23:53 GMT
>Any ideas about the regs requiring cutoff of supply in low voltage
>conditions.

The statutory limit is just that. Brownouts should never occur in the UK,
since the utility should cut the power completely rather than go below the
limit. Obviously this isn't necessarily going to happen if there's a fault in
a local distribution transformer, or a neutral cable gets an open circuit
fault.

Mark Rand
RTFM
Lester Caine - 04 Feb 2010 07:28 GMT
>> Any ideas about the regs requiring cutoff of supply in low voltage
>> conditions.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> a local distribution transformer, or a neutral cable gets an open circuit
> fault.

Certainly the statement from any utility 'it couldn't happen' should be treated
with contempt - they don't monitor each customer premises and we have had
similar problems while the wires were overhead. I anticipate that it might
happen again. At least once told they DID switch of the feed rather than giving
a 'dangerous' answer, and I suspect any adviser who made that sort of statement
should be retrained?

Signature

Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
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John S - 04 Feb 2010 13:30 GMT
> The statutory limit is just that. Brownouts should never occur in the UK,
>
> Mark Rand
> RTFM

I'll bet you get brownouts in Bradford.

John S.
Mark Rand - 04 Feb 2010 16:42 GMT
>> The statutory limit is just that. Brownouts should never occur in the UK,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>John S.

Could do with one in Downing Street...

Mark Rand
RTFM
brightside S9 - 03 Feb 2010 11:33 GMT
>I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if one
>could help please?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>TIA Julian.

Wikepedia explains it. See paragraph headed standardisation at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

It appears that no country had to change anything to implement
HD 472 S1:1988  (see references 1 and 2 on Wikepedia page).

It appears to cost money to get a copy of the source documents.

Signature

brightside S9

Julian - 03 Feb 2010 11:59 GMT
>>I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if
>>one
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> It appears that no country had to change anything to implement
> HD 472 S1:1988  (see references 1 and 2 on Wikepedia page).

I distrust wiki nowadays, any old idiot can contribute, so it would appear!

I found this:  For a transition period (1995-2008), countries that had
previously used 220 V changed to a narrower asymmetric tolerance range of
230 V +6% ?10% and those (like the UK) that had previously used 240 V
changed to 230 V +10% ?6%.

But what now? The transition period is over - too complicated for me to get
brain ache over :-)

Julian.
Bob Minchin - 03 Feb 2010 11:43 GMT
> I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if
> one could help please?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> TIA Julian.

230V +/-10% (207-253)
Before you complain to the leccy board.
Measure the voltages at the meter otherwise they might fob you off
saying it is your wiring at fault.
I have heard stories of their reluctance to do anything even in an over
voltage cases.

Are you neighbours affected too? Maybe some extra ammunition to your cause??

Good Luck

Bob
Julian - 03 Feb 2010 12:01 GMT
>> I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if
>> one could help please?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Are you neighbours affected too? Maybe some extra ammunition to your
> cause??

Thanks, I have been measuring at the meter.

I have an (I think) 11Kv supply to the property and a transformer, that
looks like it dates back to the 40's up a pole that supplies just me and the
neighbour. I'm of the opinion that it's old, inefficient and no longer up to
the job. But I'm far from expert on the matter!

Regards Julian.
Lester Caine - 03 Feb 2010 12:04 GMT
>> I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if
>> one could help please?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Are you neighbours affected too? Maybe some extra ammunition to your
> cause??

We had a poor supply until all of the overhead cables were moved underground,
now the UPS's have a fairly stable 235V while previously they used to drop into
'buck mode' when everybody switched on their kettles down the road ;) So even
dipping below 207V was acceptable to them as long as it was above when they
measured it ...

If you can work out which end of the road your feed is coming from it may be
possible to check a neighbor closer to the supply point. As a bad joint further
up stream would cause a problem. THAT was one reason the EB gave up on our over
head cables - they all needed replacing anyway so moving under ground made sense
and they could switch people over as they went rather than having to shut the
whole area down for a couple of days. Of cause we still get problems with
lightning strikes as the step down transformer is on polls further up the chain :(

Signature

Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
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Graham - 04 Feb 2010 17:19 GMT
>I'm sure there's one or two electrical boffins on this NG so I wonder if one
>could help please?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>TIA Julian.

The document you want is "The Electricity Safety, Quality and
Continuity Regulations 2002"
(http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/uksi_20022665_en.pdf)

There has been updates since but only to update references from the
16th regs to the 17th regs.

From page 14

(3) For the purposes of this regulation, unless otherwise agreed in
writing by those persons specified in paragraph (2), the permitted
variations are—
(a) a variation not exceeding 1 per cent above or below the declared
frequency;
(b) in the case of a low voltage supply, a variation not exceeding 10
per cent above or 6 per cent below the declared voltage at the
declared frequency;
(c) in the case of a high voltage supply operating at a voltage below
132,000 volts, a variation not exceeding 6 per cent above or below the
declared voltage at the declared frequency; and
(d) in the case of a high voltage supply operating at a voltage of
132,000 volts or above, a variation not exceeding 10 per cent above or
below the declared voltage at the declared frequency.

note: low voltage =< 1000 v rms AC

mmmm, electricity suppliers...... Good luck

It is not uncommon at all to see lights dim / flouresants flash when
heavy loads are switched on. Electric showers and banks of
downlighters are particually good at that.

Also, the regs on volt drop within an installation have changed for
the 17th edition. It used to be 4% (9.2v) max. it has changed to 5%
(11.5v) for general circuits and 3% (6.9v) for lighting.

In the regs there is a general requirement to install under voltage
protection (this includes temporary loss of supply) where it may cause
harm (section 445), for example a motor overheating, or an item
stopping and restarting unexpectedly. In practice all consumer goods
will be tested and suitable devices inbedded within, such as a thermal
fuse or an interlock on a food mixer preventing you from getting at
the moving blade should it restart. So this requirement can be largely
ignored, and could itself cause danger if not properly applied, such
as having to reset a trip in the dark. I have only come across
dedicated units on large industrial stuff, with no-volt releases
(Motor starters) providing enough protection for smaller motors /
items.

Graham
Julian - 04 Feb 2010 21:28 GMT
> The document you want is "The Electricity Safety, Quality and
> Continuity Regulations 2002"
> (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/uksi_20022665_en.pdf)

<big snip>

> Graham

Thanks the lot Graham for the reply, very helpful indeed.

Julian.
 
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