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Dehumidifier information (Long)

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Richard Edwards - 11 Feb 2010 14:28 GMT
Gentlemen,

I recently bought a dehumidifier to hopefully reduce the rusting
problems in my "workshop".
Hopefully the following may be of interest

The Dehumidifier purchased was a New Meaco DD122FW MK3. This is a
dessicant type dehumidifier purchased particularly as it will run down
to 1 deg C. Cost was £148.99 inc carriage
The "Workshop" is a garage attached to the house.
5.7m Long x 3m Wide x 2.2m High Single brick construction on 3 sides
double on the fourth. The "up and Over" door exists but has been clad
on the inside with 70mm thick foam. The flat roof ceiling is
plasterboard covered but with no insulation. An externally venting
tumbledryer is used in the garage.
I have a Lidl Temperature and Humidity sensor in my adjacent office
with an additional remote sensor placed in the garage. When placed
adjacent to each other they gave equal humidity readings (normally
about 68% in the office)
The Meaco unit was installed on the 3rd of February at 11.00 am and
left to run in "Auto" continuously. (Auto should control to a humidity
of 55-60% RH). At that time the Humidity reading in the garage was 87%
and the temperature 7.8 deg C. The unit was connected via a power
monitor.
After 24 hours the Humidity was down to 69% at 9.6 deg C and 3.15L of
water had been collected with a power usage of 8.4Kw hrs.
The unit runs at about 27watts with the fan on (continuous) and about
400watts when the humidistat kicks in.
On the 10th of February (1 week) at 11:00am the unit had pulled a
total of 8.12L of water with a total usage of 24.64 KW hrs. The
average humidity over the week was a pretty constant 68%. Lowest
temperature (seen) was 5.2 deg C and highest 10.8 deg C. (No
additional heating was used). Little work was done in the workshop
(too cold) but the tumble drier was used a few times.
If we consider that steady state conditions had been achieved after
the first 24 hours then the future consumption is likely to be
(24.64-8.4)/6 Kw hrs per day = 2.71 at my current electricity charge
that is £0.30 per day.

The fact that the unit did not achieve the expected 55-60% humidty
level was noted. The remote sensor was checked for calibration as per
info seen on the web (salt test) and was found to read 82% when it
should have read 75%. This infers that the current reading of 68% is
actually 61% which indicates that the Meaco control is reasonably
close. (All of the figures quoted above were actual not adjusted
readings).

I will continue to monitor the unit at different settings and will
report back if any changes result.

I hope that the above is of interest and would be VERY interested to
hear of results from any Compressor type dehumidifier installations
for comparison.

Richard
David Billington - 11 Feb 2010 15:05 GMT
> Gentlemen,
>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Richard
>  
I've had an Ebac compressor type running automatically in the machine
tool section on the back of my garage for about the last 16 years. Quite
happy with it and has not given any problems so far other than some
degradation of the chipboard base. It was selected as it was rated to
run down to 2C. I haven't done any energy consumption checks. Water
collection has been automatically drained into a nearby drain for maybe
a decade, but before that I had to empty it. The tank is about 4 litres
and at drier times of the year you might empty it once a week, at damper
times daily as it could fill the tank in a day.
mark - 11 Feb 2010 19:16 GMT
> Gentlemen,
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Richard

if it uses all that much electricity ..i dont understand the advantage
over a compressor type one ..

best thing you can do is vent the tumble dryer to outside ..

its rapid heating that causes the condensation .

the big lumps of cast iron remain cold and don't warm up as quick as
the rest of the room ..and then they get condensate on them .

keep the room at one temperature 24/7 ..and you want get condensate no
matter if the humidity is 90 percent.

all the best.markj
Richard Edwards - 11 Feb 2010 21:01 GMT
>> Gentlemen,
snip
>> plasterboard covered but with no insulation. An externally venting
>> tumbledryer is used in the garage.
snip
>if it uses all that much electricity ..i dont understand the advantage
>over a compressor type one ..

I have no knowledge of how much a compressor type would have used in
the same circumstances!

>best thing you can do is vent the tumble dryer to outside ..
The drier is vented outside see "Externally venting" above

>its rapid heating that causes the condensation .
>
>the big lumps of cast iron remain cold and don't warm up as quick as
>the rest of the room ..and then they get condensate on them .

Granted

>>keep the room at one temperature 24/7 ..and you want get condensate no
>matter if the humidity is 90 percent.

What temperature would you suggest?
With outside temperatures the way they have been recently I feel sure
that the costs would be even higher.

Richard
mark - 11 Feb 2010 21:52 GMT
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:16:19 -0800 (PST), mark
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Richard

WELL its swings and roundabouts ..

i reckon the heat from the dehumidifier maybe fighting with the
problem ....its raising the temp slightly periodically..as its
dehumidifying.

i would plumb a radiator in there......and have it with a valve
stat ..to keep it at say 12 degree c.

insulate the place well...........and you've then got a nice warm
environment to work in ..and no condensate.

me ..im waiting for this whispergen thing to come out  (available from
E-ON soon)...then I'm going to pipe the central heating (hydronic
radiator ) over to the workshop ....make 32 pence for every unit i
sell back to the grid.

SO IT SEEMS ..put me right if I'm wrong

and hopefully it will work out cheap .....hopefully, 'cause i cant
find any real figures from real people ..

they have them all over Germany ...NICK !

any comments advice about this whispergen and the new feed in tariff
much appreciated .

as all i see it ..it looks like win win as long as i jump on it soon
enough, before the gov changes its mind in a few years time.

BTW this whispergen .is the size of a washing machine ..having a
boiler in the workshop ..instead in the house ..is another way to keep
the place cosy...only works if you have a joined on garage and you
never use it for cars though.

all the best.markj
Richard Edwards - 12 Feb 2010 09:27 GMT
>> <aboard_epsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Gentlemen,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>i would plumb a radiator in there......and have it with a valve
>stat ..to keep it at say 12 degree c.

The idea of running the central heating all night does not appeal!

>insulate the place well...........and you've then got a nice warm
>environment to work in ..and no condensate.

No argument.

>me ..im waiting for this whispergen thing to come out  (available from
>E-ON soon)...then I'm going to pipe the central heating (hydronic
>radiator ) over to the workshop ....make 32 pence for every unit i
>sell back to the grid.

If going hydronic I suggest that you do not bolt your machines down
<G>

E-On's site says should be ready for 2009 <G>
Whispergens are NOT cheap to maintain. I have a little experience as I
installed one in a boat a while back.

>SO IT SEEMS ..put me right if I'm wrong
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>all the best.markj
Richard
mark - 14 Feb 2010 21:27 GMT
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:52:21 -0800 (PST), mark
>
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

HI Richard

i don't know anything about the maintenance issues ..please
explain ..
they guy from the UK whispergen headquarters told me the boilers had a
30,000 hour lifespan ..
he said :- that is on-time 8 hours a day ..which equals 15 years ...or
more.

and he also the latest ones are being built in a brand new factory in
Spain ..and are a different design to past ones.

whats the situation to doing you're own maintenance ..with gas i don't
know if aloud

but he said something about a maintenance contract.

i suppose ..i will have to add up all the pros and cons ..
the price on the e-on site, he said was out of date ..and the price
when released would probably be over £4000

no subsidy's now that they have changed the subsidy to the
tariff ..and not to the buying price .

all the best.,markj
Peter Parry - 15 Feb 2010 14:38 GMT
> i don't know anything about the maintenance issues ..please
>explain ..

They are complicated devices so few fitters understand them, those
that do charge a premium.  Up until now they have proven to be
unreliable and very expensive to maintain.  Spare parts can be
hideously expensive - see
http://www.onboardenergy.com/acatalog/Whispergen_Spares.html for the
diesel version spares to give you an idea.  For example the
electronics module is a snip at only £1,200 (ex VAT).  The
installation and purchase cost is being heavily subsidised by the
power companies - the spares and running costs are not.

>they guy from the UK whispergen headquarters told me the boilers had a
>30,000 hour lifespan ..

>he said :- that is on-time 8 hours a day ..which equals 15 years ...or
>more.

They don't guarantee them for 15 years do they?  

They have many moving parts, rotating bits and electronic controls, it
is unrealistic to expect them to last as long as a conventional
boiler.  30,000 hours may be an optimistic design life - it certainly
isn't going to be their service life unless you treat them like
Trigger's broom.

>and he also the latest ones are being built in a brand new factory in
>Spain ..and are a different design to past ones.

So leave it a decade and see if the new ones are any better than the
old.

>whats the situation to doing you're own maintenance ..with gas i don't
>know if aloud

They are too complicated for most fitters.  

>but he said something about a maintenance contract.

That would certainly extinguish any saving!
mark - 15 Feb 2010 18:06 GMT
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:27:38 -0800 (PST), mark
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> That would certainly extinguish any saving!

Thanks Peter ..that's a  good insight....yes the spare prices in that
list are horrendous ..stuff that...whispergen ..too good to be true
by the looks of it.

PS.. I heard that the trials were a success ..not a failure with
unreliabilty...there are various pdfs about on the net that say so.

It's the scare stories about gas and electricity prices going up by
another 25 percent in the next two years that are worrying me ..

I had a waste oil system i designed on test that worked very
well ...and cost me almost nothing ..
it did all the heating ...and would let me use an open hose with hot
water coming out of it all day without it cooling down.
Sadly could not get away with such a system in the suburbs.
if i lived out in the wilds..a secluded house  ..i could do it ..

FORD PINTO ... surly a diesel engine would work better and be cheaper.

all the best.markj
Peter Parry - 15 Feb 2010 14:12 GMT
>On 11 Feb, 21:01, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>

>me ..im waiting for this whispergen thing to come out  (available from
>E-ON soon)...

It has been "soon" for about 5 years.  There have been a number of
trials but I believe all were stopped because of unreliability.

>then I'm going to pipe the central heating (hydronic
>radiator ) over to the workshop ....make 32 pence for every unit i
>sell back to the grid.

Unfortunately the idea, unless you have a small to medium hotel,
simply doesn't make economic sense.  It works off the waste heat from
the boiler.  If you have a modern boiler they are about 90% efficient
so not much waste heat to begin with.  The Whispergen captures about
25% of that.  If you insulate your house well your heating bill goes
down and the amount of electricity you generate goes down.

For something like a 100 bed nursing home with a high constant
temperature they may make sense, for a normal house it is unlikely you
will ever recoup the cost.

>and hopefully it will work out cheap .....hopefully, 'cause i cant
>find any real figures from real people ..

Cheap they are not.

>BTW this whispergen .is the size of a washing machine ..having a
>boiler in the workshop ..instead in the house ..is another way to keep
>the place cosy...only works if you have a joined on garage and you
>never use it for cars though.

With a modern boiler the case losses are about 100W which isn't going
to keep any workshop warm!
Mark Rand - 15 Feb 2010 15:46 GMT
>>On 11 Feb, 21:01, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It has been "soon" for about 5 years.  There have been a number of
>trials but I believe all were stopped because of unreliability.

Strikes me that it would be more cost effective at the moment to use a CHP
plant based on waste heat recovery from a NG fuelled spark-ignition engine
powered alternator rather than a Stirling engine.

Mark Rand
RTFM
David Billington - 15 Feb 2010 16:45 GMT
>  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> RTFM
>  
There was just that sort of thing mentioned on the local news in the
west country maybe 20 - 25  years ago. IIRC a Ford Pinto engine
generating electricity and the waste heat used for building heat in a
complex. They mentioned an upshot of the engine running at constant
speed, well below peak, was that the engine life expectancy was much
higher than in an automotive application.
Cliff Ray - 15 Feb 2010 17:47 GMT
>>  
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> speed, well below peak, was that the engine life expectancy was much
> higher than in an automotive application.

Of course the best solution is to use a computer. Very few moving parts
(if you don't count holes and electrons) and all (if you turn the
monitor and speakers off) of the electrical energy comes out as heat.

That way whatever you do on the computer costs you nothing, though with
the monitor and speakers off it might not be much use :)
Julian - 15 Feb 2010 21:21 GMT
>>>> On 11 Feb, 21:01, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>>>       me ..im waiting for this whispergen thing to come out  (available
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> peak, was that the engine life expectancy was much higher than in an
> automotive application.

I remember a feature on ''Tomorrow's World'' at about that time. They used a
Fiat Diesel engine of around 50BHP. The electricity generated and the waste
heat fed a small block of flats.

I think, as mentioned a while ago, the economics don't word for a small
private dwelling - maybe there's scope for some sort of DIY option along the
lines of the old Lister Start-O-Matic?

About 10-15 years ago I manages to have a look at Manchester Airport's CHP
plant. Two V12 Mirlees Diesels (AKA ship engines) running on 95% natural gas
and 5% Diesel (the Diesel acted as ''the spark'' so I was told) You could
walk along the valleys between the banks!

Julian.
Peter Parry - 17 Feb 2010 21:50 GMT
>as all i see it ..it looks like win win as long as i jump on it soon
>enough, before the gov changes its mind in a few years time.

It appears the Whispergen recovers about 5-10% of the heat energy in
the boiler exhaust, not 25% as I mentioned.  It is also worth pointing
out a slight fallacy in the various "return on investment" figures
being bandied about suggesting you can achieve the equivalent of 8% or
more.  You can't.

Even assuming all the optimistic figures are true what you are looking
at is not an investment.  If you invest money then at the end you get
back your capital (the amount you invest) plus interest earned over
the period.   With this scheme your capital investment at the end is
worthless.  A 15 year old boiler (or windmill or solar panel) has
little or no value so your investment is lost.  All you are left with
is the small annual return.  

Spending you money on better insulation is a far better bet.
mark - 17 Feb 2010 22:29 GMT
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:52:21 -0800 (PST), mark
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Spending you money on better insulation is a far better bet.

The insulation is done ..i cant do any more ..

OK you've put me off the thing  mentioning the.possibility of loosing
all savings in one repair bill .

but on paper, if it didn't bugger up, it still looks good ..

30 pence per unit back will pay for this boiler in half its life's
span.

i don't have a boiler at the moment .

thats how i see it, looking through my rose tinted sunglasses.

A 5 year free parts and maintenance contract ..of £75 per year would
also sell the thing to me.

The thought of a warm workshop ..on the cheap is also a nice thought.
(thats what gives me the extra capacity for it)

The thought of gathering and chopping wood, the alternative, is not a
nice thought.

I will see what the contract is when it comes out ....then decide.

What more can you ad that Ive somehow missed .

all the best.markj
Cliff Coggin - 12 Feb 2010 10:27 GMT
keep the room at one temperature 24/7 ..and you want get condensate no
matter if the humidity is 90 percent.

all the best.markj
---------------------------------------------
True, but you will still get rust.

Cliff Coggin.
Drawfiler - 15 Feb 2010 18:09 GMT
On Feb 11, 2:28 pm, Richard Edwards <poundea...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Richard

I have built several workshops over the years and can not stress the
advantages of insulation enough, sort out the roof by fixing a minimum
of 3" of insulation on the inside by fixing wood beams and using 3/8
plasterboard to hold the fibereglas up.
After that do the same on the walls using rigid glass bats and cover
with 1/2" board. The result will be an even temp summer and winter,
low heating cost and no rust. If you need more help, PM me
Peter
 
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