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Soldering

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Chris Wilson - 13 Jun 2004 22:54 GMT
Q1 ... Anyone got any tips for holding small parts together whilst soldering
(no rude jokes please!)?

Q2 ... I've got some home-made "helping hands" (croc clips soldered to stiff
wire in turn soldered to a base) but they aren't steady enough what do folks
think of real ones?

(Building my first Brass/whitemetal engine and never had to work to such
precise tolerances before)

Signature

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)
http://www.britwar.co.uk - British Wargames
http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway

NC - 13 Jun 2004 23:17 GMT
> Q1 ... Anyone got any tips for holding small parts together whilst
> soldering (no rude jokes please!)?
>
> Q2 ... I've got some home-made "helping hands" (croc clips soldered
> to stiff wire in turn soldered to a base) but they aren't steady
> enough what do folks think of real ones?

Rather than spend lots of money, try Mr Eveleigh's clamping system; see
http://www.2mm.org.uk/mag0897/clamps.htm

If the parts are irregular in shape, carve a piece of wood to support the
part. Chop the ends of pegs to suit the size you need. You can also
cross-drill pegs for a second skewer to act as a targetted prodder.
If the parts are very thin, use a packer either above or below to space the
clamp from the base (so the bamboo bends). Decide whether the packer would
benefit from being a heat sink or not on the situation in hand.

eg: various pictures of clamps in use building some rather nice coach
etches, also designed by Mr Eveleigh:
http://www.nigelcliffe.photobook.org.uk/c92140.html

Also, worth considering if the object is U-shaped and needs work on both
sides is a side-ways clamp like this:
http://www.nigelcliffe.photobook.org.uk/p2150239.html
The flat face is 10mm thick MDF, with another layer of MDF below (but
smaller in area, so the upper overlaps). The clamp strip is a thin piece of
ply. The underframe is folded up, and then clamped into position allowing
detail (springs, footboards, etc.) to be added whilst the other side is
completely protected.
You will need to adjust the dimensions (thickness) for scales other than
2mm.

Additional tools which are very useful are aluminium hairgrips and lots of
wooden prodders - cocktail sticks, skewers, lolly sticks, etc...

> (Building my first Brass/whitemetal engine and never had to work to
> such precise tolerances before)

See signature :-)

- Nigel

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NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

Chris Wilson - 14 Jun 2004 18:44 GMT
...
> > such precise tolerances before)
>
> See signature :-)
>
> - Nigel

That's a bunch of great ideas and tips, thanks.

2mm scale? Boys stuff ... :-)

... just wait till you're working with 1:300 or 1:285 micro armour or 1:1200
warships ... I was once criticised for using what was claimed to be the
wrong shade of yellow on the facings of some Napoleonic era troops just 5mm
high!

Signature

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)
http://www.britwar.co.uk - British Wargames
http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway

John Sullivan - 14 Jun 2004 07:31 GMT
>Q1 ... Anyone got any tips for holding small parts together whilst soldering
>(no rude jokes please!)?
>
>Q2 ... I've got some home-made "helping hands" (croc clips soldered to stiff
>wire in turn soldered to a base) but they aren't steady enough what do folks
>think of real ones?

I've got one of these: it broke, i.e. one of the cast spheroidal joints
broke away from the rest of its "arm". The thing appears to be cast out
of some metal or other, and like most small cheap metal castings, it is
not very strong.

>(Building my first Brass/whitemetal engine and never had to work to such
>precise tolerances before)

Signature

John Sullivan
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden.

David F. - 19 Jun 2004 21:24 GMT
> Q1 ... Anyone got any tips for holding small parts together whilst soldering
> (no rude jokes please!)?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Chris Wilson

I bought a set of 3 different sized 'G' Clamps from my local hardware store.
I fitted them with thin sheet rubber pads on the inner jaws and they are fine
for holding small components together while soldering or filing to shape.

David.
Jim Guthrie - 19 Jun 2004 23:40 GMT
Chris,

>Q1 ... Anyone got any tips for holding small parts together whilst soldering
>(no rude jokes please!)?

To add to the other suggestions,  you can get some light allow hair
clips which are excellent for holding things together,  or in place.
They are made of softish alloy,  so they don't take to solder and they
can be bent to a required shape quite easily.

Also the spring wooden clothes peg itself is a good clamp (before you
break it into bits to make Nigel's recommended holders with the bamboo
canes).   The springs are a bit strong,  so they should be used with
care around thin metal if you don't want to mark it.   You can hack
and file the ends to suit whatever you want to do.    Don't get the
plastic ones - they melt at the sight of a soldering bolt.

Also,  look at getting some soft iron wire - used by florists for
flower arranging.  This wire bends and stays bent and is very useful
for holding larger irregularly shaped items together while soldering.

Another suggestion is to look at getting an RSU - Resistance Soldering
Unit.   Soldering small detail parts is a lot easier using this
equipment since you hold the parts together in place with the point of
the tool,  then apply the power to heat the joint,  then cut the power
while still holding the part in place until the solder solidifies.
They can be a bit costly,  but if you've got about £100 to spare,
they can be worth the expense.

Jim.
NC - 20 Jun 2004 15:59 GMT
> Another suggestion is to look at getting an RSU - Resistance Soldering
> Unit.

I disagree.
Better to purchase a good temperature controlled iron for most work (eg.
Antex mid-range models).

I have an RSU, and it gets used very rarely.
I regard it as an expensive luxury which promises more than it really
delivers, in common with lathes, milling machines, etc..

>                      Soldering small detail parts is a lot easier using
this
> equipment since you hold the parts together in place with the point of
> the tool,  then apply the power to heat the joint,  then cut the power
> while still holding the part in place until the solder solidifies.

- Nigel

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NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

Chris Wilson - 20 Jun 2004 20:31 GMT
> > Another suggestion is to look at getting an RSU - Resistance Soldering
> > Unit.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I regard it as an expensive luxury which promises more than it really
> delivers, ...

Thanks everyone, that was going to be a follow-up question, I've got a 25W
iron with a clapped out bit and an old 15W iron from Tandy (as was) that has
to take a bit of a run up before it gets hot. OK, so I can replace the bit
of the 25W iron and truth be told it's OK for the time being but I was
thinking of treating myself to a new iron as my next big "tool purchase".

Can you elaborate more on why you think RSUs aren't that good? From what
I've read various users tend to look at them as being the bee's knees.

Cheers,

Chris
NC - 20 Jun 2004 21:07 GMT
>>> Another suggestion is to look at getting an RSU - Resistance
>>> Soldering Unit.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> time being but I was thinking of treating myself to a new iron as my
> next big "tool purchase".

Suggest you get an Antex 25W conventional iron as an interim measure - less
than 20 pounds.  They are a lot better than many other irons. And get a
selection of bit shapes - smaller ones are very useful for most jobs.
I prefer the 18W, but as I'm doing 2mm scale, the smaller size is
appropriate.

> Can you elaborate more on why you think RSUs aren't that good? From
> what I've read various users tend to look at them as being the bee's
> knees.

This is my own experience, and I know lots of others like them.

I own most forms of soldering;  3 small conventional irons (12,18,25W), one
100W iron, two gas-powered, a RSU (from London Road Models, but typical of
those on sale). The only one I've not got is temperature controlled, though
I have used the swish electronics one in the technician's lab at work. I'll
be purchasing a temperature controlled one at some point, probably when I
need more than 18W of power as my old 25W iron is not very good.

I've tried using the RSU to assemble various 2mm items, and a 4mm Comet
coach as specific projects - gone through the project building everything
with the RSU unless I got stuck.

I found the RSU probes to be somewhat of a problem - they are quite fat
(even the extra one with the extra-flexible leads).  The probes also get
quite hot in use, so you need to back-off and do something else whilst
things cool down. Compared to a soldering iron, they are quite clumsy to
hold.

Judging the correct current can be difficult, though you learn which
combination works for which piece of work.
Needing to have a good earth path for everything can be a problem.  I
routinely use it ontop of a sheet of aluminium which is earthed to the RSU
return lead.
The earth block can be a heat sink which doesn't help the job. This depends
on what you are doing.

The claimed "it only delivers heat when you want it" is no more true than
for a conventional iron.

For most work, I find it to be slower and a bit harder than a conventional
iron. I don't find it easy to "push" a solder puddle around with an RSU,
which is a key benefit of a conventional iron.

Where the RSU scores is fitting some types of detail.  eg. the sand boxes on
the footplate of my DY1 :
http://www.nigelcliffe.photobook.org.uk/p1123214.html  (it looks better now
its got glazing, numbers, BR totem, etc).
Those are lumps of brass round, with an angled filed on them. The RSU was
ideal to zap them onto the footplate. The tip of the probe can hold the work
in place, then the current applied, joint form, then remove the current.
That said, I fitted the two on a second body with a conventional iron.

The RSU is good for some sheet-work - notably the underframe of the Comet
coach, though the claims for their use when fixing large over-lays didn't
work out for me - its still as easy to get a buckle or a bubble on the
sheet.

I built quite complex items, with multiple over-lays, such as a rake of GE
four wheelers, with only the Antex 18W:
http://www.nigelcliffe.photobook.org.uk/c83431.html

Overall, if I want to build something, I reach for the 18W Antex. Only if
that doesn't do the job do I reach for another soldering tool.  The other
soldering tools (bigger, gas or RSU) get used in about equal measures for
the 10% of jobs where the Antex doesn't do the job.

Having used a temperature controlled iron, I can see the value.  They have a
much better ability to store heat and deliver it when you need it without
the temperature of the iron plummeting when placed on the job, and because
the temperature is controlled, they make using multi-temperature solder a
bit more sense than just selecting the solder with the appropriate gap/flow
properties (eg. do some work with 220+ solder, then drop to 180, etc.).
I'm inclined to purchase an Antex 660TC system, with the addition of the
smaller 25W iron - probably about the same price as a RSU.

- Nigel
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Jim Guthrie - 20 Jun 2004 21:28 GMT
Nigel,

>I have an RSU, and it gets used very rarely.
>I regard it as an expensive luxury which promises more than it really
>delivers, in common with lathes, milling machines, etc..

I got an RSU two or three years ago and I might term it an expensive
luxury since I had managed to work without it for forty years :-)
But it sits on my bench alongside my Weller Temperature controlled
iron,  my ancient heavyweight Solon and my small blowtorch,  and it
gets used regularly from choice,  not because I feel I have to because
it cost me £90. :-)   It works well for detail soldering,  especially
for the 'hold it down,  apply heat, hold it till set' facility,  and
it is also the fastest source of heat if it is suitable for the job.
There are jobs where it is not the best choice,  and then you use
whichever of the other tools you find best.    I wouldn't be without
one now.   I could survive without one,  but it makes my life easier
in a lot of instances and that makes its cost worthwhile.

I also must take you to task on classing lathes and milling machines
as expensive luxuries.   It surely depends on how you want to do your
modelling.  I model in 7mm and I prefer to scratchbuild,  using a
lathe and, lately, a milling machine as well.  Now if I didn't want to
scratchbuild,  but buy kits to make my models,  then I could find
myself spending the same amount of money on one loco kit as I would on
a lathe.  So in 7mm, what's the expensive luxury - scratchbuilding
using machine tools,  or buying kits which could quite easily total a
much greater cost?   I also model in S scale, and with a good lathe I
make my own wheels which,  in a lot of cases,  you have to in S.
Without the lathe,  I couldn't achieve that.

I'm also investigating making a set of 16 boxpok drivers in 7mm for
another modeller - there are no commercial items available.   They can
only be made by using a lathe and a milling machine - or can you
suggest an alternative cheaper and less luxurious way of manufacturing
them :-)

I bought my present lathe well over thirty years ago so the cost
should be amortised over that period,  and I suspect that it would be
less than the cost of a pint of beer a day over that period - for me
that's not too expensive a luxury.

Jim
Dick Ganderton - 20 Jun 2004 23:21 GMT
Jim

Do you find "the RSU probes to be somewhat of a problem - they are quite
fat (even the extra one with the extra-flexible leads). The probes also
get quite hot in use, so you need to back-off and do something else
whilst things cool down. Compared to a soldering iron, they are quite
clumsy to hold." ?

> Nigel,
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Jim
Jim Guthrie - 21 Jun 2004 07:35 GMT
Dick,

>Do you find "the RSU probes to be somewhat of a problem - they are quite
>fat (even the extra one with the extra-flexible leads). The probes also
>get quite hot in use, so you need to back-off and do something else
>whilst things cool down. Compared to a soldering iron, they are quite
>clumsy to hold." ?

With the RSU unit I've got - no :-)   It's got a wooden handle to the
holder which insulates the hand from the heat of the tip,  so there's
no discomfort under use.   The flexible leads are fine and don't
affect the work,  especially if using a metal plate as the return
baseplate.  

And the probes are as fine as I want to make them.  I normally sharpen
mine with a cheap pencil sharpener,  but if I need them longer and
thinner,  I sharpen them by hand with a knife,  just as I would a
pencil.   I don't find the tips any more cumbersome to use than the
selection of tips I have for my Weller Temperature Controlled iron.

PS.

I think I should add,  for other readers,  that the RSU I'm using is
manufactured by Dick Ganderton :-)   But it does work very well and I
mean what I say above.

And no money has exchanged hands between Dick and I - except for the
money I paid him for the unit :-)

Jim.
NC - 21 Jun 2004 20:14 GMT
> Jim
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> something else whilst things cool down. Compared to a soldering iron,
> they are quite clumsy to hold." ?

I think you should have added a commercial interest disclaimer to your
posting.

I started my posting with "This is my own experience, and I know lots of
others like them."

I'm sure Jim loves his system.

- Nigel

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NC - 21 Jun 2004 20:25 GMT
> Nigel,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> one now.   I could survive without one,  but it makes my life easier
> in a lot of instances and that makes its cost worthwhile.

I think other tools would be a better first choice for most people.

There is also a tendency I've observed to purchase tools in the hope that it
will make better models. It doesn't. Its application of tools to a job with
skill which produces a better model, and practising is what improves skill.
That said, there is a point where inappropriate and poor quality tools make
the job down-right difficult to impossible.

> I also must take you to task on classing lathes and milling machines
> as expensive luxuries.   It surely depends on how you want to do your
> modelling.

Of course it depends what you want to make and the individual relative
priority between using commercially available parts and making ones own
parts.
I've seen people spend £1000+ on a lathe with tooling and wonder why it
doesn't instantly improve their models. Ownership of a lathe won't make good
models. Knowing how and when to use it might.

- Nigel

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John Bishop - 22 Jun 2004 19:02 GMT
I find there are a small number of tasks for which it is invaluable -
for example, attaching strapping to a brass coach kit.  But otherwise it
is out with the soldering iron, in my case a variable temperature Antex,
which I highly recommend.

Possibly one's choice of solder may influence the choice. Those who use
solder paint may prefer an RSU, but I'm a solder and paste flux
merchant.  Even using the RSU, I tin the strapping then use a paste
flux.

John

In article <2joquhF13tj0vU1@uni-berlin.de>, NC <me@privacy.net> writes

>> Nigel,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>- Nigel

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John Bishop

 
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