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Model Forum / General / Railroads / June 2004Coach numbers
Often Hornby etc. make a coach model available with several different numbers (e.g. the coronation class ones are 1069/1070/1071). I am fairly new to this and I am not sure if all the coached making up one train should have the same number or should they vary. If the former is true then a problem arises as the brake coaches appear to be numbered 5792 or 6062. Your advice is greatly appreciated. Alexander Lamaison. >Often Hornby etc. make a coach model available with several different >numbers (e.g. the coronation class ones are 1069/1070/1071). I am fairly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Alexander Lamaison. Every coach should have a different number.  SignatureJohn Sullivan OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden. Thank you. >>Often Hornby etc. make a coach model available with several different >>numbers (e.g. the coronation class ones are 1069/1070/1071). I am fairly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > Every coach should have a different number. Not strictly true. Each of the four Companies had there own numbering system and BR created a fifth. So there could have been a train consisting of: 1500 W1500W S1500S E1500NE M1500SC Then, in pre-grouping days, some companies (and I'm unsure which) had parallel numbering systems for each of the three classes so there could be a first class number 150, a second class number 150 and a third class number 150 John >Thank you. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>> >> Every coach should have a different number. SignatureJohn Bishop "John Bishop" > Not strictly true. Each of the four Companies had there own numbering > system and BR created a fifth. So there could have been a train > consisting of: > > 1500 W1500W S1500S E1500NE M1500SC No plain "1500", in steam days, but : - S1500 + M1500 + E1500 + W1500 + W1500W + S1500S + E1500NE + M1500SC and don't forget, M1500M > "John Bishop" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > S1500 + M1500 + E1500 + W1500 + W1500W + S1500S + E1500NE + M1500SC and > don't forget, M1500M The suffix identified the coach's 'big four' origin, while the prefix was the current region code, so there wouldn't have been an E1500NE or M1500SC - more like NE1500E or Sc1500M (were the Sc and NE codes around when pre-BR coaches were in service? IIRC those prefixes came along later). Also, there wouldn't have been S1500, M1500, E1500 etc at the same time - just one coach numbered 1500 with the appropriate region prefix. -- *** http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/ *** Updating regularly throughout 2004 Rich Mackin (rich-at-richmackin-co-uk) MSN Messenger: richmackin-at-hotmail-dot-com > The suffix identified the coach's 'big four' origin, while the prefix was the > current region code Again, not strictly true. The prefix showed the region to which the coach was allocated for operational purposes. The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, this was usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not necessarily so. Salty > The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, this was > usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not necessarily so. I'm not convinced of that. I always understood that the suffix indicated the pre-nationalisation origin of the coach. John. >> The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, >> this was usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not >> necessarily so. > > I'm not convinced of that. I always understood that the suffix > indicated the pre-nationalisation origin of the coach. Yes. BR-built Mark Is had no suffix. SignatureMartin S. > >> The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, > >> this was usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes. BR-built Mark Is had no suffix. So, it was possible, and was done IIRC, to see a coach branded, for example W1500S. An ex Southern coach transferred to the [Shudder] Western [spit] Region. IIRC, this happened on the transfer of the Withered Arm to that mob from Swindon. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ > > >> The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, > > >> this was usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > IIRC, this happened on the transfer of the Withered Arm to that mob from > Swindon. Same thing happened with the last Gresley buffets, which spent their final years on the WR too. -- *** http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/ *** Updating regularly throughout 2004 Rich Mackin (rich-at-richmackin-co-uk) MSN Messenger: richmackin-at-hotmail-dot-com > So, it was possible, and was done IIRC, to see a coach branded, for example > W1500S. > > An ex Southern coach transferred to the [Shudder] Western [spit] Region. > IIRC, this happened on the transfer of the Withered Arm to that mob from > Swindon. Yes indeed as this picture shows:- http://web.ukonline.co.uk/53amodels//picture/31018-YK-270377.jpg except in this case the ex-LNER Gresley buffet is allocated to the Western Region. John. > So, it was possible, and was done IIRC, to see a coach branded, for example > W1500S. > > An ex Southern coach transferred to the [Shudder] Western [spit] Region. > IIRC, this happened on the transfer of the Withered Arm to that mob from > Swindon. Some Bulleid stock made its way to the Eastern Region for a while, appearing in lined maroon (*very* rare for SR-built coaches) with E-prefix numbers. David E. Belcher > Some Bulleid stock made its way to the Eastern Region for a while, > appearing in lined maroon (*very* rare for SR-built coaches) with > E-prefix numbers. Where were they used please David? Presumably on inter-regional workings - although the stock of Newcastle/York to Poole workings were still "S" prefixed into the 80s despite being in blue/grey livery. John. > Where were they used please David? Presumably on inter-regional workings - > although the stock of Newcastle/York to Poole workings were still "S" > prefixed into the 80s despite being in blue/grey livery. > > John. Not sure about the routes they were used on. I have seen photos of maroon ER Bulleids, and can only presume these were displaced from main lines in Kent by EMUs in the late 50s. Interestingly, another wave followed in the mid 60s, but this time they were swapped with Eastern Mk.Is, the undergoing, so it would seem, rebuilding into Bournemouth line MU stock - see; http://www.semg.org.uk/coach/bullco06.html http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/Bulleid.htm Don't know what colour the second lot would have been though, as the transfer occurred at the start of the 'blue period' - whether, given their being supplanted by Mk.IIs a few years later, they would have been repainted from green is uncertain. David E. Belcher > Not sure about the routes they were used on. I have seen photos of > maroon ER Bulleids, and can only presume these were displaced from > main lines in Kent by EMUs in the late 50s. Interestingly, another > wave followed in the mid 60s, but this time they were swapped with > Eastern Mk.Is, the undergoing, so it would seem, rebuilding into > Bournemouth line MU stock - see; Oops. A 'latter' seems to have been left out between 'the' and 'undergoing'. Sorry about that. David E. Belcher > > The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, this was > > usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not necessarily so. > > I'm not convinced of that. I always understood that the suffix indicated > the pre-nationalisation origin of the coach. Nearly always; as mentioned on the uk.railway group some time ago, the Manchester-Hadfield EMUs proved an exception to the rule. Being an LNER design, all coaches first carried, correctly, E as a suffix and prefix. When the LMR decame responsible for the sets, M was the prefix, but coaches were still suffixed E (again, correct). However, a slip-up was perpetuated from the '70s up until withdrawal so that some of the stock incorrectly had M as the suffix too - though not designed or built by the LMS! David E. Belcher > > The suffix identified the coach's 'big four' origin, while the prefix was > the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The suffix showed the region responsible for maintenance - yes, this was > usually the same as the coaches "big four origin", but not necessarily so. Nope, the suffix (if there was one) described which 'big four' railway company the coach originated with: E = LNER S = SR W = GWR M = WR BR-built stock had no suffix. The operational/maintaining region would have generally been the same, and the prefix showed this. -- *** http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/ *** Updating regularly throughout 2004 Rich Mackin (rich-at-richmackin-co-uk) MSN Messenger: richmackin-at-hotmail-dot-com Ok, a little confused now. My locomotive is the blue LMS Coronation Scot No.6220 (Hornby R2206) - No longer made. What should I do? This would also be a good time to ask what arrangement or carriages would this train have run with. As far as I can find, the following coaches are the ones meant to go with the locomotive: R4128A - No.1069 - 1st Class R4128B - No.1070 - 1st Class - No longer made R4128C - No.1070/1071 (both at once?) - 1st Class Comp (I'm not sure what that word means) - No longer made R4127A - No.5812- 3rd Class R4127B - No.5814- 3rd Class - No longer made R4127C - No.5792 - 3rd Class Brake - No longer made R4218 - No.6062 - 1st Class Brake R4141 - Nos.3934/3935/5447 - Pack of 2xComps and 1xBrake coaches To add to the confusion I have found a 3rd Class Brake coach on eBay No.9702 and some other (old looking) ones. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Alex Lamaison > "John Bishop" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > S1500 + M1500 + E1500 + W1500 + W1500W + S1500S + E1500NE + M1500SC and > don't forget, M1500M >Ok, a little confused now. My locomotive is the blue LMS Coronation Scot >No.6220 (Hornby R2206) - No longer made. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > R4128C - No.1070/1071 (both at once?) - 1st Class Comp (I'm not sure what >that word means) - No longer made Comp is an abbreviation of Composite, i.e. containing both first class and third class seats. 1st class comp is a contradiction in terms. > R4127A - No.5812- 3rd Class > R4127B - No.5814- 3rd Class - No longer made [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> S1500 + M1500 + E1500 + W1500 + W1500W + S1500S + E1500NE + M1500SC and >> don't forget, M1500M SignatureJohn Sullivan OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden. "John Sullivan" <john@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >> R4128C - No.1070/1071 (both at once?) - 1st Class Comp (I'm not sure >> what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 1st class comp is a contradiction in terms. Well it doesn't actually call itself a 1st Class comp but as all the doors I could see were labelled '1' so I just figured. Here it is: http://www.hornbyrailways.com/pages/prod_pst_det.aspx?id=1572 Thanks for your help > Well it doesn't actually call itself a 1st Class comp but as all the doors I > could see were labelled '1' so I just figured. Here it is: Hornby have traditionally (and incorrectly) referred to any non-brake coach as a composite, and I suspect that's why we've ended up with some pretty useless coach offerings if one wants to make up a prototypical rakes from Hornby coaches. Incidentally, it's perfectly possible to have a brake composite. John. I was thinking of buying this carriage set from eBay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5905624238&sspagename=STRK% 3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Do you think this would be reasonably prototypical (I.e. 2x 1st Class and a brake coach). Here is more about it from Hornby: http://www.hornbyrailways.com/pages/prod_pst_det.aspx?id=1496 Would it also be ok to later add extra coaches with numbers in the 1070 region (this pack is in the region of 3900)? Oh that reminds me, one other question I meant to ask: Where abouts in the train was the brake coach positioned (at the back?) and did any trains ever have more than one brake coach? Thank you for all your help Alexander Lamaison >> Well it doesn't actually call itself a 1st Class comp but as all the >> doors [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > John. > Do you think this would be reasonably prototypical (I.e. 2x 1st Class and a > brake coach). Here is more about it from Hornby: I don't know how the Coronation Scot train was made up so can't answer your query but http://www.hornbyrailways.com/pages/prod_pst_det.aspx?id=1496 Claims LMS Crimson Lake Composite & Brake Coaches - classic case in point - the first class coach is NOT a composite - it is a first class corridor coach. John. "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... > I don't know how the Coronation Scot train was made up so can't answer your > query but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the first class coach is NOT a composite - it is a first class corridor > coach. Makes you wonder if Hornby, gorblessem, use the label 'comps' to refer to compartments... -- Regards, Steve Jones, Shropshire, England > Makes you wonder if Hornby, gorblessem, use the label 'comps' to refer to > compartments... But they use it for corridor coaches too! I think they believe it's the term for a non-brake coach. Doh! John. > Hornby have traditionally (and incorrectly) referred to any non-brake coach > as a composite, and I suspect that's why we've ended up with some pretty > useless coach offerings if one wants to make up a prototypical rakes from > Hornby coaches. Just looking at the photo, the window spacing suggests that this is indeed a composite coach. It does seem odd then that there are "1" markings on the doors at both ends, but I'm not in a position to say whether this is prototypical or not. > Incidentally, it's perfectly possible to have a brake composite. Graham Farish did/do the Mk1 BCK in N gauge, although they were pretty rare in real life. SignatureDave Fossett Saitama, Japan http://jtrains.fotopic.net/ > Just looking at the photo, the window spacing suggests that this is indeed a > composite coach. It does seem odd then that there are "1" markings on the > doors at both ends, but I'm not in a position to say whether this is > prototypical or not. If it's described as a composite then it should have more than one class of passenger accomodation. If it's only for first class passengers then it's NOT a composite. Some coaches were reclassified in later years, some first class were downgraded for second class usage, but that wouldn't mean they continued to be classified as first class coaches. I've got one of the Hornby Gresley "composites" on my layout, but as I didn't want any first class accomodation on that particular train it's had the first class branding removed from the doors. So it now effectively becomes a 2nd corridor (and consequently is no longer a composite coach). John. >> Hornby have traditionally (and incorrectly) referred to any non-brake >coach [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Graham Farish did/do the Mk1 BCK in N gauge, although they were pretty rare >in real life. Bachmann do one or two in OO. In olden days you even had a tri-composite, which contained seats of 1st, 2ns and 3rd classes. SignatureJohn Sullivan OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden. >> Hornby have traditionally (and incorrectly) referred to any >> non-brake coach as a composite, and I suspect that's why we've [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > markings on the doors at both ends, but I'm not in a position to say > whether this is prototypical or not. It's the same body moulding Hornby has used for its Stanier LMS/MR coaches for many years (very similar to the metal Hornby-Dublo version); it has four 2nd/3rd class comapartments and 3 larger 1st class. >> Incidentally, it's perfectly possible to have a brake composite. The Hornby LNER Gresley brake is a 1st/3rd composite. The Stanier and Gresley coaches use the same chassis and interior mouldings. > Graham Farish did/do the Mk1 BCK in N gauge, although they were > pretty rare in real life. SignatureMartin S. >"John Sullivan" <john@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Thanks for your help Ah, all is made plain. The description on their web site is wrong. The description in their catalogue is "1st class coach" which is more like it. SignatureJohn Sullivan OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden. > Ok, a little confused now. My locomotive is the blue LMS Coronation Scot > No.6220 (Hornby R2206) - No longer made. > What should I do? This would also be a good time to ask what arrangement or If you switched to N-gauge no one could read the numbers so it wouldn't matter. If you tried 1-gauge everyone would be so busy Ooo-Aaaring they wouldn't notice. Life is only trying for 4 and 7 mm. people:) Ken. > No plain "1500", in steam days, but : - > > S1500 + M1500 + E1500 + W1500 + W1500W + S1500S + E1500NE + M1500SC and > don't forget, M1500M Nope, there wouldn't be duplication of numbers with different prefixes, but you might get, for instance E1500, M1501, S1502, W1503 eta al all the BR regional prefix did was to advise the region to which the coach was allocated. I suspect there was not duplication of numbers with suffixes either. John. > > No plain "1500", in steam days, but : - > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > all the BR regional prefix did was to advise the region to which the coach > was allocated. Doh!. Of course. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ >Not strictly true. Each of the four Companies had there own numbering >system and BR created a fifth. So there could have been a train >consisting of: > >1500 W1500W S1500S E1500NE M1500SC Someone else has already mentioned that these last two should be the other way around. If you consider the "number" as including the letters, then these are all different. Perhaps I should have said that every coach owned by a particular company should have a different number. Yes, I know about the following, but for all practical modelling purposes, it can be ignored. >Then, in pre-grouping days, some companies (and I'm unsure which) had >parallel numbering systems for each of the three classes so there could >be a first class number 150, a second class number 150 and a third class >number 150 The GWR had this sort of numbering system in early days, but it changed it well before the grouping. >John SignatureJohn Sullivan OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html My next project: Extend the layout back up the other side of the garden. |
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