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Model Forum / General / Railroads / June 2005N-gauge DCC fitted loco announced.
Reports on the net over the weekend that Peco are to enter the ready-to-run N-gauge loco market were today confirmed by their rep, who brought along a superbly proportioned pre-production model of a GWR Collett 0-6-0 loco. It's worth reporting that this loco is to be produced DCC fitted - a first for N-gauge in this country utilising a Lenz decoder, but useable on both DC (with and without feedback) and DCC layouts. Apart from the decoder and a Mashima can motor powering the tender, all other parts will originate in the UK and all development work has been done in Devon where the loco will also be manufactured - no Chinese input here! The down side is the price, with the RRP expected to be GBP140.00 but offset by some exquisite quality including see-through wheels and superb level of detail. Three versions will initially be produced, two in GWR livery and a BR black version. The first models are expected in the shops around September.  SignatureBest wishes, John Turner, 53A Models, Hull, UK. > Reports on the net over the weekend that Peco are to enter the > ready-to-run N-gauge loco market were today confirmed by their rep, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > black version. The first models are expected in the shops around > September. John, Did you get the chance to run a ruler over it to check off the basic dimensions ? Any indication of the drive / gearing in the tender beyond "Mashima can motor" (I can make an educated guess as to which can they'd use). Pickup method - all wheels ? tender only ? tender one-side, loco the other ? Method of wheel mounting (split axles would be nice - easier to re-gauge). Flange dimensions because that alters how easy the wheels are to convert to finescale (no, I doubt you measured that :-) ). I guess anyone with a bit of ability (and willingness to chuck the guarantee away) could chop the chip out of the wiring (I am not convinced that a DCC loco runs that well on decent DC control and visa-versa). Its just possible that Peco might actually be the first people to bring out a UK N steam loco which improves on the standard set 30 years ago. Outside chance of a decent loco in the scale for once ! - Nigel SignatureNigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/ > Did you get the chance to run a ruler over it to check off the basic > dimensions ? Afraid not. > Any indication of the drive / gearing in the tender beyond "Mashima can > motor" (I can make an educated guess as to which can they'd use). A quick glance at the exploded diagram included with the model suggested drive from one end of the motor onto a gear train linking all axles. > Pickup method - all wheels ? tender only ? tender one-side, loco the other ? > Method of wheel mounting (split axles would be nice - easier to re-gauge). > Flange dimensions because that alters how easy the wheels are to convert to > finescale (no, I doubt you measured that :-) ). The wheels looked 'nicely fine' but I didn't measure them having only passing interest in N-scale, but I *think* I saw traction tyres on some of the tender wheels. I saw no electrical connection between loco and tender but remember this was purely a (very nice) pre-production sample which I was told was not powered. > I guess anyone with a bit of ability (and willingness to chuck the guarantee > away) could chop the chip out of the wiring (I am not convinced that a DCC > loco runs that well on decent DC control and visa-versa). The DCC decoder didn't show up on the exploded drawing, so I can't comment on that. If it's anything like the DCC fitted Bachmann class 25 then it might well be inbuilt into a PCB built into the loco. This is pure speculation, and I hope they won't go along that route. > Its just possible that Peco might actually be the first people to bring out > a UK N steam loco which improves on the standard set 30 years ago. Outside > chance of a decent loco in the scale for once ! Initial impressions suggest this loco is better than any British outline N-gauge model which has gone before, and will even be an improvement on the late lamented Peco Jubilee. Certainly the coupling rods are much finder than anything on that loco. Without any doubt if this is the first of a future range from Peco, then Bachmann / Farish will have a lot to do to compete on quality. It makes the latest Farish V2 look amateurish. The price is such that it will be a good indicator whether the British modeller in N-scale is willing to pay a premium price for quality. I think it's a little sad that they've gone along the DCC-fitted (take it or leave it) route, as this mode of operation is still very much at the fledgling state in N-scale in the UK. John. >> Did you get the chance to run a ruler over it to check off the basic >> dimensions ? [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > that it will be a good indicator whether the British modeller in > N-scale is willing to pay a premium price for quality. Thanks John. If it turns out to be as good as the initial impressions, then I agree, its a very good test of the UK market. Either there are customers who care about accuracy and quality, or N-gauge is a "toy train price is the only factor" market. The changes in OO over recent years suggest there is a decerning customer base out there, but nobody has gone to £150 for a major name maker. > I think it's a little sad that they've gone along the DCC-fitted > (take it or leave it) route, as this mode of operation is still very > much at the fledgling state in N-scale in the UK. Agreed, particularly in N. In my case, if I wanted, I could chop out any decoder no matter where it is in the loco (but then I could scratchbuild one as well). However, I will probably go to DCC shortly, so one with a decent decoder would be fine for me. - Nigel SignatureNigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/ Bit snipped > Apart from the decoder and a Mashima can motor powering the tender, all > other parts will originate in the UK and all development work has been done > in Devon where the loco will also be manufactured - no Chinese input here! > The down side is the price, with the RRP expected to be GBP140.00 but offset > by some exquisite quality including see-through wheels and superb level of > detail. Sounds nice but why oh why are they producing it in this country? It could be produced for half the price in the Far East. I suspect its patriotism gone mad. > Three versions will initially be produced, two in GWR livery and a BR black > version. The first models are expected in the shops around September. By all means design them here but get them made in China. > Best wishes, > John Turner, > 53A Models, Hull, UK. Paul > Sounds nice but why oh why are they producing it in this country? It could > be produced for half the price in the Far East. FFS do you want to see all British industry die? We've (fairly) recently seen Hornby abandon the UK as its manufacturing base, but seen no price advantage for the consumer, in fact Hornby have done nothing but push their prices higher since they embraced their *cheap Chinese manufacturing base*. The Far East is not about cheaper consumer prices, it's all about bigger profits for manufacturers. At least Peco are employing British people in Britain. I for one am prepared to pay something of a premium to support that philosophy! John. > The Far East is not about cheaper consumer prices, it's all about bigger > profits for manufacturers. At least Peco are employing British people in > Britain. I for one am prepared to pay something of a premium to support > that philosophy! > > John. Ill second that!! >> Sounds nice but why oh why are they producing it in this country? It > could [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Britain. I for one am prepared to pay something of a premium to support > that philosophy! I'm not and I probably speak here for the silent majority of consumers. My only consideration is that a model is: 1) British Outline 2) Good quality 3) Value for money Its place of origin is of no concern to me. It just so happens the most recent engine I bought was 100% British-made but that had absolutely no bearing on my decision to purchase. (kim) > I'm not and I probably speak here for the silent majority of consumers. Maybe you do, but the logical extension to your picture is that there are no jobs left here and therefore no consumers to buy your *high profit* Chinese made models. John. I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money for 150 quid locos! >I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other > burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money > for 150 quid locos! Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. (kim) >>I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other >> burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money >> for 150 quid locos! > >Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive >goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. At Chinese wages. >(kim) > >>I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other > >> burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > At Chinese wages. At around a pound an hour it would only take you two weeks! >>I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other >>burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > (kim) "At a price people can afford" is the key > "At a price people can afford" is the key But can you afford to buy the Hornby Grange at an RRP of £95.00 or one of their A4s at £99.99 or a class 31 at £89.99? These are far higher than any of the models produced by this manufacturer when they produced their goods in the UK. John. >>"At a price people can afford" is the key > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John. These are higher - but the standard of model is also higher - and I would rather high a few high quality engines than a mass of low quality toys on the layout > These are higher - but the standard of model is also higher - and I > would rather high a few high quality engines than a mass of low quality > toys on the layout Are they that much higher in terms of quality and specification than recent releases from Bachmann? If like me you believe not, then explain the difference in pricing please. John. > Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive > goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. But we can, it's all about whether manufacturers want to use near-slave labour in 3rd world countries to allow them to make bigger profits by manufacturing overseas. We certainly don't see any benefit in terms of lower pricing from goods made in those countries. John. >> Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive >> goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John. Slave labour is a bit of a misnomer in some cases, specifically in Eastern Europe and some parts of China. Although, to us the wages are pitiful, to these people it is a very good wage. Indeed, you take your average street sweeper or such like in the UK, he may earn, what? 12K? If he was to live in a China and was being paid £12000 per year then his standard of living (i.e., what he can buy, size of house etc.) would probably be the same as someone in the UK earning £50,000+. Why do you think so many Westerners move to the Philippines, Thailand, or even down under? Their money goes *so* much further. SignatureRegards, James Christie "Luck is my middle name," he said, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." > Slave labour is a bit of a misnomer in some cases, specifically in > Eastern Europe and some parts of China. I said *near-slave labour*. At the end of the day it is not all about wages, it's about conditions of employment too, and certainly in some of the reports I've heard of the conditions under which some Chinese factory workers are expected to operate, they would certainly be considered near-slavery in the West. John. > >> Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive > >> goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Why do you think so many Westerners move to the Philippines, Thailand, > or even down under? Their money goes *so* much further. I've just been through the exercise in reverse (NZ - UK) as your health system keeps head-hunting medical/professional people: Your wages are three times ours, which looks very inviting! Unfortunately it would seem your living costs are proportional, which leaves only a bit of discretionary cash left over, either here or there. Where you can afford a UKp150- loco I can only afford a UKp50- loco _but_ I can afford a 50m2 layout shed by adding $3000/UKp1000- to my mortgage. The Chinese workers can barely afford the basics of life on their magnificent income. Regards, Greg.P. NZ > I've just been through the exercise in reverse (NZ - UK) as your health > system [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > magnificent > income. Friends of mine lived in England for a couple of years (he came from there, she moved there) before they both moved out here (Australia). To their mind, the salary minus cost of living was much the same in both places. In which case, I'll stick to the better weather and larger houses here thanks (and my 9m by 6m layout shed...) > >I think we're all supposed to make a living flogging each other > > burgers or insurance policies - that won't leave enough pocket money > > for 150 quid locos! > > Or people in Britain could try to make a living by producing competitive > goods at a price people can afford and within a reasonable period of time. That's simply no longer possible, EU regulations and economics together with a socialist political doctrine (of which the modern Tory party is as guilty of as any other major party) effectively prevent much British industry from remaining or becoming viable. If you want that to change we as a country have to return to conservative (note capitalisation) politics and protectionist (where necessary) economics ... again though that's not going to happen because of the indoctrination that takes place via an education system that entirely fails to teach any form of "civics" with education in the humanities such as it is being subject to political doctrine combined to the overwhelming socialist control of the mass media - particularly television. SignatureAll the best, Chris Wilson That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply address is blackholed) http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway - UPDATED John, >The Far East is not about cheaper consumer prices, it's all about bigger >profits for manufacturers. At least Peco are employing British people in >Britain. I for one am prepared to pay something of a premium to support >that philosophy! It could also be that the projected sales figures for the loco don't warrant taking the production to China. I suspect there is a break even point in cost of setting up/cost of shipping, etc., even with the lower labour costs in China, that requires a fairly high level of throughput to make it all worthwhile. Jim. Speaking as someone who's day job involves design of products in the UK for volume manufacture in China then I suspect JIm is right. Dealing with China is a logistical night mare - a tooling 'tweak' that would take 2 days to do in Devon would probably take 3 months to do in China. The you you have to hope and pray they got it right when the container full turns up in the UK. Even with the web, e-mail , peer review etc. etc. the process still isn't smooth. It isn't at all difficult to see why Bachmann's development shcedules get so far behind, or why the Hornby banger blue Brush type 2 turned up without it's bodyside band. Hopefully the Peco Collett can push British 'N' forward in the way the Bachmann V2 hasn't. There's a stunning picture of a Collett on Steve Jones' website, it's not the Peco model though:- http://www.electricnose.co.uk/prototype/photos/sj034568.jpg Please notice the paint finish is mirror gloss and not Dulux matt, silk-vinyl or anything else. Likewise the preserved Small-Prairie of which the Bachmann version is wrong. (kim) |
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