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Model Forum / General / Railroads / September 2005Helijan O Gauge
Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try my hand at a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! I find it interesting that Bachmann can do O gauge american outline diesels for substantially less. > Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge > Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try > my hand at a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! I find it > interesting that Bachmann can do O gauge american outline diesels for > substantially less. I would think the answer to your implied question is that the market for a Hymek is very much smaller than the market for an American diesel. You are not comparing like with like. Paul >Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge >Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try >my hand at a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! I find it >interesting that Bachmann can do O gauge american outline diesels for >substantially less. No sign of these on the Bachmann website, where did you find them? (0n30 is not 0 gauge!) Keith Not being an expert on the different US based models, but there are a number of diesels listed under O Gauge here http://www.bachmann.co.uk/price1.php4?prod_selected=american If the prices are right, then they are ridiculously cheap in comparison to the Helijan model. >Not being an expert on the different US based models, but there are a >number of diesels listed under O Gauge here >http://www.bachmann.co.uk/price1.php4?prod_selected=american > >If the prices are right, then they are ridiculously cheap in comparison >to the Helijan model. They might be listed 'under O scale' but they are not O scale, the only O scale items are the plasticville structure kits and the On30 stock. The listr is just badly organised. Keith > Not being an expert on the different US based models, but there are a > number of diesels listed under O Gauge here > http://www.bachmann.co.uk/price1.php4?prod_selected=american > > If the prices are right, then they are ridiculously cheap in comparison > to the Helijan model. If you go to the US site there are no locos or rolling stock listed under 0 gauge, only buildings. Ollie > Not being an expert on the different US based models, but there are a > number of diesels listed under O Gauge here > http://www.bachmann.co.uk/price1.php4?prod_selected=american > > If the prices are right, then they are ridiculously cheap in comparison > to the Helijan model. > Not being an expert on the different US based models, but there are a > number of diesels listed under O Gauge here > http://www.bachmann.co.uk/price1.php4?prod_selected=american > > If the prices are right, then they are ridiculously cheap in comparison > to the Helijan model. The Bachmann UK (American page) website is a mess and very misleading. There are no O-gauge locos listed, although there are some O-scale narrow gauge. The headings (in blue print) bear no resemblance to what follows them. The Plymouth diesels listed under the O Scale heading are actually N-scale. It's been pointed out to Bachmann before but they don't seem interested in rectifying things. John. > Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge Hymek? > £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try my hand at > a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! I find it interesting > that Bachmann can do O gauge american outline diesels for substantially > less. Don't know how true this is but I was told today that the development costs of the O-gauge 'Hymek' was 'only' around GBP80K and that Heljan need to shift around 400 to break even. If that is the case I think they're being terribly silly and in effect pricing the loco out what could be a mass sale market and a real boost to 7mm scale modelling. I'd have said at around. GBP300 they'd sell maybe four times the number they will at the projected price. John. If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they gone for a prototype with a geographic restriction (ie the old Western Region) rather than something with a wider prototypical applicability. Disregarding shunters, why not (for example) either Class 24, 25, 31 or 47, or even Class 40, 45 or 46? David Costigan > > Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge Hymek? > > £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try my hand at [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John. >If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they gone >for a prototype with a geographic restriction (ie the old Western Region) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >David Costigan Using a loco they already researched reduces the extra investment, expect a 47 next if this is successful. Keith > >If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they gone > >for a prototype with a geographic restriction (ie the old Western Region) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > expect a 47 next if this is successful. > Keith I hope they get the width right this time! :-) Mick > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they > gone [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Class > 40, 45 or 46? One of Heljan's biggest retail outlets is Antics which is based in the west country, hence the western region bias. (kim) > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they > gone [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > David Costigan There is no connection between railway models and mass sale markets of any kind. Model railways are an extremely complex and poorly served niche market. A mass sale market is when you buy in 200,000 teddy bears from China at 24p each delivered, pay 10p each for a snazzy bag, then pile 'em high in department stores and flog them out at £3.99 each. All gone in two days, phone call to China, get me 250,000 more right now, must be here before Xmas. That's a mass sale market, and no research, development, or marketing costs of any kind. And no-one writing reviews about how the teddy bear doesn't exactly replicate the prototype and the makers should be treated like scum. If I was a department store buyer, I know what I'll be filling my shelves with this coming Xmas. Cheers, Santa > There is no connection between railway models and mass sale markets of any > kind. Of course strictly speaking you're right, but at the end of the day it's all relative. Why aim for a loco with extremely limited geographical appeal, when one with almost universal appeal has similarly been researched and also produced in 4mm scale? John. > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they gone > for a prototype with a geographic restriction (ie the old Western Region) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > David Costigan Hi David. As I recall they were remarkably well travelled and somewhere I have a load of pictures of them around Fareham. In fact when the club gets its new premises we will be looking to start an O Gauge project and one of these could well be on my cards... The other thing about them is that as a "quirk" the western region hydraulics seem to have a sort of cult following; another reason why I will consider buying one (but then again I have a real soft spot for lost causes). BTW, will you be coming to our exhibition on the 1st & 2nd of October? May have some news about our new premises. Elliott (Yes folks, The Druid is sort of back again) Hi Elliot, whats the news on the new club room? Paul Stevenson > > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they > gone [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > (Yes folks, The Druid is sort of back again) > whats the news on the new club room? Hi Paul The present situation is that we are being offered the use of the former Cams Alders Social Club building in Alexander Grove, SUBJECT TO safisfactory SURVEY by FBC Estates and agreement about the work to be done. Unfortunately there is a lot more than meets the eye behind this very simple statement and although we are keen we are no longer holding our breath. The real problem, however, is finding a new exhibition venue. One of the community schools we were told to approach clearly doesn't want to have anything to do with community groups and one of the 'ordinary' schools, well, the words party and brewery spring to mind in a very negative sense... We have tried The College but practicallities seem to doom that idea (Sports Hall only has 2 x 13A sockets). We have looked at another venue who are very keen to have us but when you do the space calcs I don't think it will be possible to fit even a small show into their buildings. Ferneham Hall is just "out" on grounds of cost (we would be the first provincial show to charge £10 a ticket and still make a loss). The proposed new venue for the community centre (over the road in the Methodist Church) is also a complete non-starter for a 2 day weekend show for the obvious reason, plus the fact that there are going to be a number of small halls but no big one (i.e. no space big enough to hold a layout the size of Soberton), and the biggest one is actually going to be part of the "sacred space". I will set an auto-nag to re-post in a month or so when we may have a few more answers to all the strands. On the bright side, next year is the 40th anniversary of the club, we'll be in touch as our being here was all your fault in the first place ;-) (for those who don't know, Paul was the one who placed an ad in the modelling press of the day asking if there was any interest in forming a club in Fareham) Best regards Elliott elliott.cowton@ntlworld.com The message <YCsYe.13256$ws4.11114@newsfe5-win.ntli.net> from "Elliott Cowton" <NoSpam@deathtospammers.org> contains these words: > The real problem, however, is finding a new exhibition venue. One of the > community schools we were told to approach clearly doesn't want to have > anything to do with community groups and one of the 'ordinary' schools, > well, the words party and brewery spring to mind in a very negative sense... Why not look a little further afield - such as the Victory Hall in Warsash?  SignatureColin > The message <YCsYe.13256$ws4.11114@newsfe5-win.ntli.net> > from "Elliott Cowton" <NoSpam@deathtospammers.org> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why not look a little further afield - such as the Victory Hall in Warsash? Henry Cort sports hall? (its BIG). 10th Fareham Scout HQ? (little smaller than community hall). Niel. > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they > gone [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Class > 40, 45 or 46? I don't understand this choice either. It had been widely suggested that an O-gauge class 47 was likely, and despite the fact that the 'Hymek' was the first official announcement of a 7mm scale loco by Heljan, we've had firm orders for ten times the numebr of 47s compared with the class 35. John. > > If Heljan really wanted to get into a "mass sale market" why have they > > gone [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > John. Perhaps it's out of respect for a venerable tradition ;-) (http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/BigBig/BlHymek.htm) Andy Kirkham > Don't know how true this is but I was told today that the development costs > of the O-gauge 'Hymek' was 'only' around GBP80K and that Heljan need to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John. So in other words, they need to make sales of 190k (at full price) to break even. Priced at a more reasonable £150, they would only need to sell 1266 to make the same money, obviously the costs would be higher because of the larger number of units made - but still a 4 fold increase in sales should be easily achieved? >Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge >Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try >my hand at a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! A kit for a Hymek will cost £429 http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/mm1/diesels.htm On another page.. http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/mm1/parts.htm it seems that motoring this Hymek will cost another £55. DJH kits and the motors aren't far behind pricewise... >>Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge >>Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > DJH kits and the motors aren't far behind pricewise... Yes but will the Heljan be truly RTR or will it be a half-finished kit of parts like the 00 Western? (kim) > Yes but will the Heljan be truly RTR or will it be a half-finished kit of > parts like the 00 Western? Me thinks you protest too much. The H52 did require some detail parts adding, but that is fairly normal with most ready-to-run models these days. The more recent Hornby diesels have buffer beam pipework so fine that it defeats my eyesight to contemplate fitting. John. >> Yes but will the Heljan be truly RTR or will it be a half-finished kit of >> parts like the 00 Western? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John. I've recently bought a Hornby Class 50 and when I saw all the little bits that were already attached to it, I thought there must be some poor sods in China being paid 20p an hour to glue tiny little handrails and other bits to the models all day long. It must drive them nuts! Fred X >>> Yes but will the Heljan be truly RTR or will it be a half-finished kit >>> of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > in China being paid 20p an hour to glue tiny little handrails and other > bits to the models all day long. It must drive them nuts! Not really. The migrant girls who do it earn more in a week than they would in a whole year back home working in the paddy fields. A lot of the money is sent home to support their families. Their working and living conditions are constantly monitored by government officials. (kim) > Not really. The migrant girls who do it earn more in a week than they > would > in a whole year back home working in the paddy fields. I was told they earn twice the average that they would back home, which even so is quite a premium. John. It does seam expensive but... DC Kits produce "o" gauge HEA`s for £ 45.00 in kit form and £ 65.00 rtr ( which means the heljan Model is over 7 times more expensive than a wagon). to compare the price ratio it does roughly add up though, A Hornby Hymek ( using E Hattons site ) is £ 43.00 the Hornby HEA is £ 6.00 thus the loco is 7 times the price of the wagon kindest regards Simon Judd http://www.modeldepot.co.uk Is anyone here shocked at the price being asked for the new O gauge Hymek? £475 each puts me off starting in O Gauge - I'd much rather try my hand at a cheap loco kit and hope its not too difficult! I find it interesting that Bachmann can do O gauge american outline diesels for substantially less >It does seam expensive but... >DC Kits produce "o" gauge HEA`s for £ 45.00 in kit form and £ >65.00 rtr ( which means the heljan Model is over 7 times more >expensive than a wagon). to compare the price ratio it does roughly >add up though, >A Hornby Hymek ( using E Hattons site ) is £ 43.00 the Hornby >HEA is £ 6.00 thus the loco is 7 times the price of the wagon >kindest regards >Simon Judd Using a similar argument to Simon's on a scale calculation. The increase in volume between 7mm and 4mm scale is (7/4) x (7/4) x (7/4) = 5.359 Therefore a likely increase in cost between the two scales could be expected to be of a similar magnitude. This is not a bad approximation for the likes of DJH loco kits, by the time you've included all the bits. A kit for a Mercian Models Barclay shunter is only 3x more expensive in 7mm when compared to 4mm. Parkside wagon kits are in the 4-5x price increase between 4mm and 7mm scales. Cheers, Mick > This is not a bad approximation for the likes of DJH loco kits, by the > time > you've included all the bits. I remember talking to someone at DJH just after they'd released their first O-gauge kit, and they were totally surprised at the number they sold and as a consequence made a real killing, having expected to have to recoup their tooling costs over a much lower volume of sales. The sad thing is for O-gauge modellers is that established the sort of price which the kits could command. John. Mick, >Using a similar argument to Simon's on a scale calculation. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Parkside wagon kits are in the 4-5x price increase between 4mm and 7mm >scales. Surely you can only apply that reasoning to the materials which go into a kit, and I would reckon that the cost of basic materials in any kit is quite a small proportion of the whole price. I would suspect that most of the cost of a kit is the R&D which goes in to designing it, and that should be fairly independent of scale. And with a flatpack etched kit, shouldn't the calculation be 7/4 x 7/4 = 3.06 :-) Jim. > Mick, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jim. It *should*be a similar calculation for the etched kits, as the thickness of the etch should also increase by 7/4!! :-) Mick [..] >>>A kit for a Mercian Models Barclay shunter is only 3x more expensive in >>>7mm [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It *should*be a similar calculation for the etched kits, as the thickness of > the etch should also increase by 7/4!! Not necessarily. 7mm etches can be pretty close to scale thickness, while smaller scale etches must sometimes be thicker than scale, otherwise they'd crumple just by breathing on them. In fact, a 4mm loco frame will need plates of about the same thickness as a 7mm loco, just for the strength. > :-) > > Mick In terms of cost factors, the usual weighting is: No.1 R&D (or tooling) No.2 tooling (dies, moulds, cutting jigs etc) (or R&D) No.3 distribution (warehousing/packaging/advertising/invoicing) No.4 plant overhead (labour/energy/building/etc) No.5 materials The first two usually amount to about 50% of the kit cost. The third and fourth take most of the rest. Materials are the least cost of all, in many case amounting to just a couple percent of the total. The total cost must be spread over the expected sales for the item's first run, which will usually be much less for 7mm than for 4mm**, which translates into a higher per unit cost of R&D and tooling, even if the R&D is apportioned equally to the two scales (which it should not be IMO, since fewer 7mm units will be sold.) What amazes me is the _low_ prices that the cottage industry owners charge for their goods. For many, probably most, it's a sideline, so they don't fully cost their own labour. If they did, you'd see at least double the current prices. **" It's true that 7mm attracts proportionately more builders than 4mm, but not enough to make up for the minuscule size of the O scale market compared to HO/OO. My 2 cents (Can) worth. |
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