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Model Forum / General / Railroads / December 2005



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What you get for Christmas?

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Rob Kemp - 25 Dec 2005 16:10 GMT
I got more Woodland Scenic trees,
crazy_horse_12002@yahoo.co.uk - 25 Dec 2005 18:47 GMT
Oh dear, this seems a bit decadent in comparison.

I got two Bachmann Flying Pigs, one early and one late crest. I think
there must have been some co-operation between my wife and father.
What marvellous models. I am finding it difficult to put them back in
their boxes.
Chris Wilson - 25 Dec 2005 19:57 GMT
> Oh dear, this seems a bit decadent in comparison.

Ditto ...

A brand new bench mounted combined belt and disk sander ... to be used
mainly for building buildings!

Oh and a shed load of book tokens.

Signature

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)

http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway

Keith - 25 Dec 2005 20:23 GMT
>Oh dear, this seems a bit decadent in comparison.
>
>I got two Bachmann Flying Pigs, one early and one late crest. I think
>there must have been some co-operation between my wife and father.
>What marvellous models. I am finding it difficult to put them back in
>their boxes.

Put the locos on the layout, sell the boxes on eBay <g>
Keith
Rob Kemp - 25 Dec 2005 21:10 GMT
I also got socks, pants and one of those things with a raffia work base :-)

>I got more Woodland Scenic trees,
Just zis Guy, you know? - 25 Dec 2005 21:16 GMT
A Hornby Class 110.  Luvvverly :-)

Guy
Signature

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

John Turner - 25 Dec 2005 21:52 GMT
More bottles of whisky (both malt & blended) than I can consume before the
end of January!  :-)

John.
Piemanlarger - 25 Dec 2005 21:55 GMT
> More bottles of whisky (both malt & blended) than I can consume before the
> end of January!  :-)

Must ry harder John!!

Class 60, very nice, another 4 please¬

!.

> John.
:::Jerry:::: - 25 Dec 2005 23:13 GMT
> > More bottles of whisky (both malt & blended) than I can consume before the
> > end of January!  :-)
>
> Must ry harder John!!
>
> Class 60, very nice, another 4 please¬

With all that whisky to consume, order 2 and you might well get 4,
but there again you might only receive one!....
John Turner - 26 Dec 2005 10:34 GMT
> With all that whisky to consume, order 2 and you might well get 4,
> but there again you might only receive one!....

My wife is ALWAYS sober Jerry, that there's little risk of that!  ;-)

John.
Rob Kemp - 25 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT
Come on John, do your best, were all counting on you!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob

> More bottles of whisky (both malt & blended) than I can consume before the
> end of January!  :-)
>
> John.
Jane Sullivan - 26 Dec 2005 09:55 GMT
>More bottles of whisky (both malt & blended) than I can consume before the
>end of January!  :-)
>
>John.

It looks like one of my new 57XXs has been at your whisky, John! When
coming round the S-bend pulling a ten-coach train at top speed, it
derailed, unhooked from its train and flew off the layout in a downward
parabola, and tried to tunnel into the earth. Maybe it was chasing the
squirrel that was running down the trackbed earlier in the day.

The only thing that broke on the loco was the front NEM pocket (part No.
150-146) which is made of that soft acetal plastic and is supposed to be
unbreakable. Everything else (including the coupling itself) is OK.
Unfortunately, I can't report this to Bachmann at the moment as they are
on holiday until 3 January and they have disabled the "Contact us" part
of their website.

Signature

Jane
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

John Turner - 26 Dec 2005 10:36 GMT
> The only thing that broke on the loco was the front NEM pocket (part No.
> 150-146) which is made of that soft acetal plastic and is supposed to be
> unbreakable. Everything else (including the coupling itself) is OK.
> Unfortunately, I can't report this to Bachmann at the moment as they are
> on holiday until 3 January and they have disabled the "Contact us" part of
> their website.

You don't need to report it to Bachmann - I'll get a couple of them in the
post to you on Wednesday when we and the Post Office return to 'action'
after the Christmas break.  In future though will you keep your Panniers
away from my whisky though?  ;-)

John.
Roger T. - 26 Dec 2005 18:18 GMT
Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?

--
Merry Christmas to all.
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Jane Sullivan - 26 Dec 2005 18:47 GMT
>Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?

What? No 2-10-2s (with sound)?, 12-packs of hoppers/boxcars/whatever?

People in your neck of the woods are so unoriginal when it comes to
giving presents :-)

>--
>Merry Christmas to all.
>Roger T.
>
>Home of the Great Eastern Railway
>http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

Signature

Jane
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

badger - 26 Dec 2005 20:41 GMT
> Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
> --
> Merry Christmas to all.
> Roger T.

Similar here, socks, vests, brandy, bugger-all railway related :-(
kim - 26 Dec 2005 21:28 GMT
>> Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
>> --
>> Merry Christmas to all.
>> Roger T.
>
> Similar here, socks, vests, brandy, bugger-all railway related :-(

Lucky you. The store which sells my socks, boxer shorts and (imported Dutch)
beer is being bulldozed to make way for Ikea. I shall have to spend the New
Year both naked and sober.

(kim)
Chris Wilson - 26 Dec 2005 21:56 GMT
>>> Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
>>> --
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Dutch) beer is being bulldozed to make way for Ikea. I shall have to
> spend the New Year both naked and sober.

One out of two isn't bad. ;-)

Signature

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)

http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway

Wolf Kirchmeir - 27 Dec 2005 03:38 GMT
>>>Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
>>>--
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> (kim)

What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
MartinS - 27 Dec 2005 04:11 GMT
> What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/track-conversion.htm

Signature

Martin S.

Wolf Kirchmeir - 27 Dec 2005 16:34 GMT
>>What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
>
> http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/track-conversion.htm

Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?
John Turner - 27 Dec 2005 17:09 GMT
> Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
> radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?

It's standard terminology in the UK, and this IS a UK group Wolf.

John.
Jane Sullivan - 27 Dec 2005 17:20 GMT
>> Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
>> radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?
>
>It's standard terminology in the UK, and this IS a UK group Wolf.
>
>John.

However, 2nd radius is 438 mm. which workx out at 17 1/4 inches.
Signature

Jane
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

Ian - 27 Dec 2005 17:36 GMT
> "John Turner" wrote:
>>"Wolf Kirchmeir"  wrote

>> Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
>> radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?

>It's standard terminology in the UK, and this IS a UK group Wolf.

While the subject of radius is under discussion, is there anywhere
online that I can compare the angles of various Peco points? Peco's
bloody useless web site has nothing I can find...

I've opted for Code 100 track as I'll almost certainly be running some
quite old stuff, and have laid my plans based on SL-91/SL-92 points -
what I can't work out is if these are the same radius as an SL-97 Y
point, or the SL-99 3way...

Hornby stuff may be limited, but at least the geometry is easy to
understand! :-/
Signature

Rgds, Ian.
Northants, England
email: myname (at) uknn+dot+com

Jane Sullivan - 27 Dec 2005 18:02 GMT
>> "John Turner" wrote:
>>>"Wolf Kirchmeir"  wrote
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>what I can't work out is if these are the same radius as an SL-97 Y
>point, or the SL-99 3way...

All Peco's Code 100 and Code 75 points with straight roads together with
their large radius Y point and "long crossings" (including single/double
slips) have 12-degree crossing angles. That includes SL-91/SL-92 and
SL-99.

Their catalogue does not tell us the crossing angle of their "curved
double radius turnouts", but assume it is 12 degrees. (It looks the same
as the others in the illustrations, but I can't find my protractor and
I'm not going looking for it at the moment!)

Their short crossing and small radius Y point are 24 degrees.

Things are very different for their latest line of code 83 track.

>Hornby stuff may be limited, but at least the geometry is easy to
>understand! :-/

Signature

Jane
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

John Turner - 27 Dec 2005 18:14 GMT
> While the subject of radius is under discussion, is there anywhere
> online that I can compare the angles of various Peco points? Peco's
> bloody useless web site has nothing I can find...

Peco produce a series of 'full-size' turnout and crossing plans, which are
ideal for planning purposes.  Your local retailer should have a stock, if
not they're available direct from Peco in return for one of the labels which
come attached to their flexi-track and an s.a.e..

John.
MartinS - 27 Dec 2005 17:24 GMT
>>>What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
>>
>> http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/track-conversion.htm
>
> Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
> radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?

Because that's how most UK modellers refer to Peco Setrack and Hornby.
They're not generally sold in North American hobby shops (except for Peco
second radius curved points). There are some specialist importers (there's
on in Port Hope ON near me), or you can buy by mail from Hatton's etc.

Signature

Martin S.

Wolf Kirchmeir - 28 Dec 2005 01:34 GMT
>>>>What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> second radius curved points). There are some specialist importers (there's
> on in Port Hope ON near me), or you can buy by mail from Hatton's etc.

Ah, yes the force of habit. I understand, I'm a critter of habit myself.
"Habits begin as cobwebs, and end as chains", according to the Spanish. :-)

I looked at the conversion site mentioned above, and I'm still puzzled.
Since the radii come out to be off the international standards (eg, 2nd
radius is 17.24"), something seems to be not quite right. I'm running
Hogwarts Express by Bachmann under the Christmas tree (or, rather, my
grandson is. :-)) The coaches are full scale length for OO as far as I
can make out, and they just barely manage on the 18" radius EZ track
that came with the set. 2nd radius, 3/4" tighter, would be too tight, no
question. So, where is the radius measured? Or are Hornby's coaches an
inch or so shorter? (Hogwarts is franchised to Hornby in the UK, and to
Bachmann over here.)
MartinS - 28 Dec 2005 05:24 GMT
>>>>>What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> measured? Or are Hornby's coaches an inch or so shorter? (Hogwarts is
> franchised to Hornby in the UK, and to Bachmann over here.)

To what "international standard" are you referring?
Atlas track radii are 15", 18" and 22", which doesn't make much sense.

Bachmann MK 1s are rather tight on 2nd radius curves. Bogie swing can be
increased by enlarging the slot adjacent to the fixing screw.

I assume radius is measured from the track centre. Hornby Mk 1 coaches
are quoted as 265mm long; I don't know about Bachmann's.

Signature

Martin S.

Wolf Kirchmeir - 28 Dec 2005 15:36 GMT
>>>>>>What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> I assume radius is measured from the track centre. Hornby Mk 1 coaches
> are quoted as 265mm long; I don't know about Bachmann's.

Bachmann's are also 265mm. There is a gap of about 6mm between the
inside corners of the coaches when being pulled around the 18"R track,
and 3mm when pushed. Just enough. Also, it looks like the bogies are
close to the limits of their swing on this curve, so I can understand
the need to enlarge the slot for 2nd radius running.

The 15" and 18" curves allow for wide enough track separation to avoid
sideswiping of trains passing each other. The 22" curve is the largest
that will fit on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Since the largest market for
sectional track was and is the USA, these are the "international
standards," in that HO sectional track is made to these radii by many
different makers, including the ones who are now making track with
molded-on ballast (in mutually incompatible versions of course.)
Generally speaking, more or less serious compromises are made with
running gear to enable rolling stock to negotiate 18" radius curves. All
other radii (Hornby, Marklin, etc) are proprietary.

<begin rant>
It's pretty obvious that Marklin, Fleischmann, Hornby, Triang, etc
adopted their own track geometry and wheel standards to prevent people
from buying other makers' products. In the short run this works, in the
long run it's lethal. (It's also very bad for the hobby as a whole.)
Lionel did the same over here with respect to O scale, with the result
that it went under. (The current Lionel shares only the trademark with
the original company, and supplies a niche market which is a fraction of
what Lionel had in its glory days.) People preferred HO for its smaller
size, sure, but the real advantage was compatibility among different
makers' products. For a decade or so in the mid-20th century, O scale
might IMO have confirmed its "largest minority" share of the hobby and
retained it to this day, if the major maker, Lionel, had conformed to
NMRA standards. The smaller size of HO was at first seen as a
disadvantage, actually, since it implied higher standards of precision
than the "average hobbyist" was assumed to be capable of.

Looking at the chequered history of Hornby/Triang and the recent
financial woes of Marklin, I think that what I call the Lionel** effect
was and is at work (among many other factors, granted.) Marklin for
example has a large and loyal fan base, but if it wants to grow, it must
cater to those of us, the majority as it happens, who want products
compatible with industry-wide standards. Marklin's undoubted superior
quality isn't enough in many people's eyes to offset the disadvantage of
incompatibility with NMRA/NEM standards, especially its continued use of
AC. Marklin has recognised this, as its Trix marque, built to NMRA
standards, shows. But it may be too little too late: the Chinese factor
will likely be the spoiler, what with a BLI's GG1 retailing at less than
half the price of Trix's, for example. (The GG1 is the large electric
loco of the Pennsylvania Railroad that was styled by Raymond Loewy, and
became an icon of the PRR. Some consider it the most beautiful electric
loco in the world. IMO it ranks up there with the Swiss/Austrian
Krokodil. I recall watching a GG1 sweep past me near Elizabeth, NJ, in
March 1968 - it was doing about 80mph, and looked like it was enjoying a
Sunday stroll. And it was _big_.)

** Considering the history of Apple, one might call it the Mac effect now.

<end rant>
Jane Sullivan - 28 Dec 2005 18:15 GMT
>The 15" and 18" curves allow for wide enough track separation to avoid
>sideswiping of trains passing each other. The 22" curve is the largest
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>running gear to enable rolling stock to negotiate 18" radius curves.
>All other radii (Hornby, Marklin, etc) are proprietary.

Well, actually, the radii made by Peco, Hornby and Bachmann are
 1st.   371 mm. (14 5/8 in.) (not sold by Bachmann)
 2nd.   438 mm. (17 1/4 in.)
 3rd.   505 mm. (19 7/8 in.)
and they are not exactly proprietary, as they are not marketed by a
single supplier. In the Peco catalogue (on the OO/HO Setrack page) these
are referred to as "British Standard" geometry.

On my garden layout the tracks are only 50 mm. (2 in.) apart and I don't
get trains sideswiping each other on curves.

[snip]
>(The GG1 is the large electric loco of the Pennsylvania Railroad that
>was styled by Raymond Loewy, and became an icon of the PRR. Some
>consider it the most beautiful electric loco in the world. IMO it ranks
>up there with the Swiss/Austrian Krokodil.

Who was Raymond Loewy? Never heard of him.

People have their own ideas of beauty, especially when it comes to
engineering products. I think the Milwaukee Road Bipolars were more
beautiful than the GG1s, but neither of them was as beautiful as the
most beautiful electric in the world, which has to be the Japanese
Shinkansen bullet trains. Yes, I know, multiple units rather than
locomotives, but that's how it is. And as for those Crocodile things,
they're just plain ugly.
Signature

Jane
OO in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

Roger T. - 28 Dec 2005 18:59 GMT
"Jane Sullivan

> People have their own ideas of beauty, especially when it comes to
> engineering products. I think the Milwaukee Road Bipolars were more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that's how it is. And as for those Crocodile things, they're just plain
> ugly.

The most "beautiful" diesel locomotive?  The Westerns, (Don't know what
their boring class "number"  was),  even if they were "Western".

--
Happy New Year to all.

Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
John Turner - 28 Dec 2005 19:08 GMT
> The most "beautiful" diesel locomotive?  The Westerns, (Don't know what
> their boring class "number"  was),  even if they were "Western".

Class 52!

Just shows that 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' - I never had much
time for the Westerns, they never had the appeal of a 'Peak'!  ;-)

John.
Kevin Martin - 29 Dec 2005 01:44 GMT
 I never had much
> time for the Westerns, they never had the appeal of a 'Peak'!  ;-)
>
> John.

Hear, Hear

Kevin Martin
Wolf Kirchmeir - 28 Dec 2005 19:22 GMT
>> The 15" and 18" curves allow for wide enough track separation to avoid
>> sideswiping of trains passing each other. The 22" curve is the largest
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Who was Raymond Loewy? Never heard of him.

Industrial designer. He also styles the NYC's 20 Century Limited
streamlined steam engines. Industrial designers aren't generally known
by name, and some probably didn't think of themselves as designers of s
style or look, but they have more to do with the look of our environment
than any other group.

> People have their own ideas of beauty, especially when it comes to
> engineering products. I think the Milwaukee Road Bipolars were more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> locomotives, but that's how it is. And as for those Crocodile things,
> they're just plain ugly.

De gustibus non est disputandum.
Roger T. - 27 Dec 2005 21:03 GMT
"Wolf Kirchmeir

> Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the
> radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?

Yes. Agree 100% Wolf.

--
Merry Christmas to all.
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
MartinS - 26 Dec 2005 22:01 GMT
> Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?

Surely you won't need all those in sub-tropical Victoria (Lat. 48:25N)

Signature

Martin S. in Cobourg (Lat. 43:58N)

Roger T. - 26 Dec 2005 23:34 GMT
>> Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
>
> Surely you won't need all those in sub-tropical Victoria (Lat. 48:25N)

We're like those southern Californians you see on the Rose Bowl broadcast,
60F/16.6C and they're bundled up like Cobourg (Lat. 43:58N) Ontario in the
depths of a February winter's day.  :-)

--
Merry Christmas to all.
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Wolf Kirchmeir - 27 Dec 2005 03:42 GMT
>>>Socks, underware, a jacket and two sweaters.  Why?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Home of the Great Eastern Railway
> http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

Wussies, the lot of you. I walked to Mic's Milk this aft, blazing sun
glinting and glaring off the snow and ice, and saw couple of teenage
boys come out of the store in tee shirts and bare arms. About -5C (23F).
Now me, with my aging, thinning blood, needed a jacket over my shirt... :-)
Alistair Wright - 26 Dec 2005 11:00 GMT
Four of the new Hornby LMS coaches.  Considering that I have a large
collection of Staniers built from my own '5522' etched kits they compare
pretty well with them, though I won't be running them in the same trains.
The roof ventilators are a bit small, the corridor connections are far too
short (to suit little Johnny I guess) and the bogies have developed some tie
bars which do not exist in the prototype (TSLJ).  Frankly though giving
these models to LJ would be folly indeed.  I have never seen so much fine
(and breakable ) detail on any RTR coach ever.  If this is where RTR is
going then kits for these protypes are utterly pointless (and probably
un-saleable).  The bogies are fascinating. Tiny details like the tie bars
being different for the two types (welded and rivetted) are correct and the
5ft springs on the later bogies are also present. Amazing!

Alistair Wright
'5522' Models
mutley - 26 Dec 2005 21:13 GMT
I got a couple of packets of Ratio security fencing, some Scaledale
dustbins and skips and two Details Matters red telephone boxes.

oh, and a M4 MK1 Sherman tank! (a real 'down memory lane' experience
for me)

Pete
Signature

http://www.ukrecmodelsrail.co.uk an unofficial website for the newsgroup
http://www.bristol-rail.co.uk an archive of photos from the Bristol area

Derek Heath - 26 Dec 2005 21:49 GMT
> I got more Woodland Scenic trees,

A Toddler subscription from my Mum. Except I didn't *know* it was from
her because the Jan issue turned up on Thursday, with no covering letter
and nothing to indicate that it was a sub. copy!
Only by some intense questioning, did the truth emerge!

Del
Mike@notigg.not.no - 27 Dec 2005 20:41 GMT
>> I got more Woodland Scenic trees,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Del

Last year I got the Woolworths 'engraver' with a collet to make it a
drill - really useful and not pricy. This year they got the extras, a
large box of burrs and buffersm drills and engravers.  All I need now
is somewhere to work!

Mike
Wolf Kirchmeir - 28 Dec 2005 01:35 GMT
>>>I got more Woodland Scenic trees,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Mike

And some saftety glasses... :-)
Model Railway Nut - 27 Dec 2005 20:58 GMT
> I got more Woodland Scenic trees,

I got a new digital camera which I've already been using before chrimbo for
taking pictures for my website. Then I got a wireless network router, card and
laptop card so that I can start getting rid of *some* of the computer wires
that festoon the house.

Alas, no model railway stuff. I made up for this by making an order to Muswell
Models for some of their stuff and am preparing an order to both Knightwing and
BHE for some lineside models and EMU kits.

MRN

Signature

The NGS N Gauge Modern Area Group website can be found at:-

http://www.ngauge-modern.co.uk

My own layout project website can be found at:-

http://www.shaunsmodelrailway.net

 
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