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Lima OO scale

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Mike Brayshaw - 14 Jul 2007 13:00 GMT
Can anyone kindly advise:
I have acquired some Lima rolling stock, supposedly all OO gauge, but some
are distinctly smaller than others – for instance mark 2 (I think it is)
Inter-City carriages some 264 mm long and some 232 mm long (and
corresponding width & height). Track gauge is the same.
How come different scales?
Thanks
Paul Boyd - 14 Jul 2007 14:40 GMT
On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
> Can anyone kindly advise:
> I have acquired some Lima rolling stock, supposedly all OO gauge, but some
> are distinctly smaller than others – for instance mark 2 (I think it is)
> Inter-City carriages some 264 mm long and some 232 mm long (and
> corresponding width & height). Track gauge is the same.
> How come different scales?

Lima made some MkII stock to HO scale, as well as to OO.  There was also
 a Class 33 to HO scale, as well as some Pullman coaches.  The track
gauge is correct for HO scale, but OO people run on narrow gauge track :-)

I have a set for dale at some point!

Signature

Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

estarriol - 14 Jul 2007 15:03 GMT
> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
>> Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I have a set for dale at some point!

They also did a 4f in HO with coachs, but I can't remember what the coachs
were based on.
Greg Procter - 15 Jul 2007 03:43 GMT
> > On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
> >> Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> They also did a 4f in HO with coachs, but I can't remember what the coachs
> were based on.

Opps, forgot freelance coach in GWR livery for toy train sets.
Ian J. - 14 Jul 2007 15:06 GMT
> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
>> Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I have a set for dale at some point!

I'm sure dale will be very happy about that ;-)

Ian J.
Paul Boyd - 14 Jul 2007 16:50 GMT
On 14/07/2007 15:06, Ian J. said,

> I'm sure dale will be very happy about that ;-)

Whoops :-)

Signature

Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Greg Procter - 15 Jul 2007 03:42 GMT
> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
> > Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Paul Boyd
> http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

I model British HO!
I need more Mk IIs.

There were 3 different Mk Is in a variety colours.
I think 4 different Mk IIs in blue/grey.
Pullmans were freelance European in BR brown/grey.
2 brake vans LMS + GWR
HSO
Box van.
BR 33 green and blue.
4F
Assorted European wagons, locos in BR markings.

Regards,
Greg.P.
NZ
simon - 20 Jul 2007 22:38 GMT
>> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
>> > Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Greg.P.
> NZ
So who would be daft enough to buy Lima 4F without realising its HO ?

Ok, there was a good reason as well as its unboxed and cheap.

So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was
hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it be
converted into something that was rebuilt with a belpaire boiler ?

Anon
Greg Procter - 21 Jul 2007 04:44 GMT
> >> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said,
> >> > Can anyone kindly advise:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > NZ
> So who would be daft enough to buy Lima 4F without realising its HO ?

I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical
German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time
period.

> Ok, there was a good reason as well as its unboxed and cheap.
>
> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was
> hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it be
> converted into something that was rebuilt with a belpaire boiler ?

I bought a couple (cheaper than cheap) that had been converted by
someone who owned a breadknife, UHU, a toothpaste tube carton, ballpoint
pen (broken), black housepaint and a three inch brush.
One had the Belpaire box cut off and card glued over the hole, a
shortened cab roof and the tender coal bunker altered.
The other had similar mods to the cab and tender with ribs across the
roof and a "V" chimney from BIC.
Leaving aside the quality of the alterations, the results didn't look
like 4Fs!

Greg.P.
John Turner - 21 Jul 2007 14:06 GMT
> I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical
> German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time
> period.

And it will also illustrate the relative quality of model offering to the
German and British markets.  I somehow suspect that the German locomotive
will be better modelled AND better engineered.

John.
kim - 21 Jul 2007 14:19 GMT
>> I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical
>> German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> German and British markets.  I somehow suspect that the German locomotive
> will be better modelled AND better engineered.

...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis :o)

(kim)
John Turner - 21 Jul 2007 15:17 GMT
> ...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis
> :o)

Greg didn't state the age of his German freight loco; if it's of a similar
age to some of the ones I have then it will be without steam roller tyres
and pastry-cutter flanges. None of my Bavarian locos have red chassis.

I seem to recall that Tri-ang models didn't exactly have fine-scale wheels.

John.
kim - 21 Jul 2007 15:37 GMT
>> ...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis
>> :o)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I seem to recall that Tri-ang models didn't exactly have fine-scale
> wheels.

Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings
with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o)

(kim)
John Turner - 22 Jul 2007 00:49 GMT
> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings
> with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o)

Not at all, I've got a delightful little Bavarian 'Mallet' 0-4-4-0T loco
made by Roco (admittedly they're Austrian) which cost well below GBP100.00
and a Fleischmann Bavarian 2-4-0T loco and three equisite 4-wheel coach set
which was around GBP150.00.

None of these have steam roller tyres or pastry-cutter flanges, and if
anything have finer wheel standards than either Bachmann or Hornby's latest
offerings, and although both are small locos, I doubt whether either of the
principle British outline manufacturers could get them to the market any
cheaper bearing in mind the detail and quality performance.

My reference to Tri-ang models was in comparisoon with contemporary German
models.  Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but
the quality of their mechanisms made up for that.

John.
kim - 22 Jul 2007 02:16 GMT
>> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings
>> with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> either of the principle British outline manufacturers could get them to
> the market any cheaper bearing in mind the detail and quality performance.

That's possibly why they're not (currently) bankrupt :o)

> My reference to Tri-ang models was in comparisoon with contemporary German
> models.  Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but
> the quality of their mechanisms made up for that.

I agree, the krauts/squareheads/bosch make superb mechanisms but the final
product still looks like a brightly coloured toy. The same goes for their
buildings and vehicles in 3.5mm scale.

(kim)
Jane Sullivan - 22 Jul 2007 12:55 GMT
>>> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings
>>> with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o)
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>I agree, the krauts/squareheads/bosch make superb mechanisms but the final
>product still looks like a brightly coloured toy.

Have you tried weathering them?

> The same goes for their
>buildings and vehicles in 3.5mm scale.
>
>(kim)

Signature

Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

kim - 22 Jul 2007 13:58 GMT
>>>> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing
>>>> shillings
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Have you tried weathering them?

I've tried weathering 1/76th scale military models in the past and it was an
unmitigated disaster whereas I can buy British outline RTR railway models
which have already been weathered for me.

(kim)
beamendsltd - 22 Jul 2007 15:36 GMT
> > Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings
> > with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> models.  Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but
> the quality of their mechanisms made up for that.

I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in
about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had
aquired over there. I was toatally bemused I'm affraid - they
did indeed have steam roller wheels and pastry cutter flanges, and
worse, the sharpness of the detail on the body was no where near
as sharp as the then new Hornby Evening Star, hand rails etc were
grossly over scale and the valave gear was "clumsy". They may or may
not have had better motors, but at that age that didn't matter!

I've no idea how they compare these days (I'm into 0 gauge), but
I did see a review of two Class 37 models on a magazine web site
recently (can't remember the two makers), and I was rather surprised
at the conclusion as to which was "better" - the points that struck
me were that one had better representation of fans than the other,
which was nice, but the suggested "better" one had most of the nose
detail missing (glaringly, lamp brackets). For me, I would
have rated them as models (obviously I've not seen them run) as
the same - both "flawed", though that's not do damn either of them.
It good old horses for courses again (with a lrage dollop of form
and functionality) - one of the factors in deciding to go '0' rather
than do '00' again was that I have to make everything, and if I get
it wrong it's my problem!

> John.

Richard

Signature

www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk       sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
             I have become... comfortably numb

John Turner - 22 Jul 2007 16:35 GMT
> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in
> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had
> aquired over there. I was toatally bemused I'm affraid - they
> did indeed have steam roller wheels and pastry cutter flanges,

But that was 30 years ago!  The Germans may have been slow starters but they
caught up a fair while ago and have now surpassed even the best of Bachmann
and Hornby!

John.

John.
kim - 22 Jul 2007 17:28 GMT
>> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in
>> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they caught up a fair while ago and have now surpassed even the best of
> Bachmann and Hornby!

How about comparing like-with-like John?

This is an image of a Roco 3.5mm scale Class 08 shunter painted in BR
colours by Martin Wykes:-

http://www.british-ho.freeserve.co.uk/images/m-wykes_roco_ee-shunter_br-blue_2.jpg

Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or
Hornby 4mm incarnations?

Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to
tell how that compares.

(kim)
Christopher A.Lee - 22 Jul 2007 18:20 GMT
>>> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in
>>> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or
>Hornby 4mm incarnations?

It's a fairly old model. Michael Andress did some articles in one of
the magazines more than 20 years ago. He was doing British HO using
what was available. For its era it was a heck of a lot better than the
Hornby product which didn't even have outside frames.

>Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to
>tell how that compares.
>
>(kim)
John Turner - 22 Jul 2007 18:26 GMT
> How about comparing like-with-like John?
>
> This is an image of a Roco 3.5mm scale Class 08 shunter painted in BR
> colours by Martin Wykes:-

But that Roco model must have been tooled at least 25 years ago.  You'd have
to compare it with the Hornby 08 of the same era.

John.
kim - 25 Jul 2007 14:15 GMT
>> How about comparing like-with-like John?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But that Roco model must have been tooled at least 25 years ago.  You'd
> have to compare it with the Hornby 08 of the same era.

How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in
4mm scale?

(kim)
John Turner - 25 Jul 2007 19:14 GMT
> How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in
> 4mm scale?

None - especially with both Bachmann & Hornby having similar offerings at
around half that price; but even then you're not really comparing
like-for-like.

If your question were rephrased to ask 'how many of my customers would pay
£110 for say a high quality model of a G5 0-4-4T or maybe a high standard
model of a J25 0-6-0' (both similarly specialised models peculiar to a
specific area) then I'd suggest quite a few.

John.
Jane Sullivan - 25 Jul 2007 21:03 GMT
>> How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in
>> 4mm scale?
>
>None - especially with both Bachmann & Hornby having similar offerings at
>around half that price; but even then you're not really comparing
>like-for-like.

What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed?

>If your question were rephrased to ask 'how many of my customers would pay
>£110 for say a high quality model of a G5 0-4-4T or maybe a high standard
>model of a J25 0-6-0' (both similarly specialised models peculiar to a
>specific area) then I'd suggest quite a few.
>
>John.

Signature

Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

John Turner - 26 Jul 2007 00:22 GMT
> What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed?

I had a play with one of the newly re-issued Bachmann sound-equipped class
20s last night and have to say that even with the limited functionality of
my Lenz Compact DCC set-up, I found the sound exciting.  Not exciting enough
to make me want one permanently (but that may be as a result of the
limitations of my Compact) as I still fear there may be a boredom factor
after a relatively short while.

Now to your point, if an off-the-shelf, sound-equipped 08 was available I
might be more tempted.  It would be the ideal loco for a 'shunting plank'
type layout, and sound might just add enough to generate more than the
standard amount of interest with this simple type of layout.  I suppose you
could operate same with a class 20, and I reckon the sound would be more
distinctive, but an 08 would have it for me for some reason.

John.
Nigel Cliffe - 26 Jul 2007 08:46 GMT
>> What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and I reckon the sound would be more distinctive, but an 08 would
> have it for me for some reason.

You're in the wrong scale John :-)

Henk Oversloot has assembled an 08 from the 2mm SA kit. His has has DCC and
Sound.
Slow running on-track minimum speed is 5mins for one wheel revolution
(48metres per minute scale, far slower than a real one can manage).
Top speed is around a scale 30mph.
Flywheel means the loco will run 0.5m if travelling at top speed and the
power is shut-off.

Only downside might be price; kit is ~£130 (includes wheels, motor, etc).
Flywheel, DCC and sound chips extra. Another man's first time builder blog
is available at:
http://2mm-shunter-kit.blogspot.com/

- Nigel

Signature

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

John Turner - 26 Jul 2007 22:41 GMT
> You're in the wrong scale John :-)

I'm already modelling in 4mm scale and will be adding a 7mm layout when the
opportunity arises - I think that's enough to occupy the remainder of my
life!  ;-)

John.
Greg Procter - 23 Jul 2007 21:45 GMT
> >> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in
> >> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or
> Hornby 4mm incarnations?

That model was released while Hornby were still producing their 1950s
Jinty chassied Class 08 without apology.

> Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to
> tell how that compares.
>
> (kim)
Greg Procter - 23 Jul 2007 21:36 GMT
> > I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical
> > German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> German and British markets.  I somehow suspect that the German locomotive
> will be better modelled AND better engineered.

Err, Lima also _claimed_ to model a German goods steam loco at about the
same time, but it was much less recognisable than the 4F!!!

Greg.P.
simon - 21 Jul 2007 23:29 GMT
>> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was
>> hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Greg.P.

Wow my modelling skills described exactly. So what could it have looked like
in the originators imagination.

cheers,
simon
Greg Procter - 23 Jul 2007 21:39 GMT
> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was
> >> hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Wow my modelling skills described exactly. So what could it have looked like
> in the originators imagination.

All British 0-6-0s look the same anyway!
;-)

Greg.P.
simon - 23 Jul 2007 22:43 GMT
>> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab
>> >> was
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Greg.P.

Only ones with tenders. Theres a big variation in tank types - saddle,
pannier, well..

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 00:02 GMT
> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab
> >> >> was
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Cheers,
> Simon

True, but take away the tanks and they look just like British 0-6-0s
without tenders fitted.
;-)

Greg.P.
kim - 24 Jul 2007 01:50 GMT
>> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the
>> >> >> cab
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> without tenders fitted.
> ;-)

Maybe so but this is how BRITISH people react to floods:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/images/2007/07/23/floods_general_14_450x300.jpg

(kim)
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 01:55 GMT
> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the
> >> >> >> cab
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> (kim)

Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
away!
We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year
flood 3 months ago.
kim - 24 Jul 2007 02:02 GMT
>> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If
>> >> >> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year
> flood 3 months ago.

In Holland we don't count floods until we're left clinging to the chimney on
the roof :oP

(kim)
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 02:19 GMT
> >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If
> >> >> >> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> In Holland we don't count floods until we're left clinging to the chimney on
> the roof :oP

I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they
have problems!
NZ is much like Holland built on a circa 45 degree (average) slope -
when the water reaches the roofs things tend to get washed away! OTOH we
do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops
300mm in 24 hours.
Graeme - 24 Jul 2007 05:33 GMT
>> >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If
>> >> >> >> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops
> 300mm in 24 hours.
We don't believe they have had a flood in NZ unless their Locos wash up on
Bondi Beach.
Graeme Hearn
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 20:34 GMT
> >> >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If
> >> >> >> >> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> Bondi Beach.
> Graeme Hearn

They may well have washed up on Bondi beach as they're not back to
running past here yet! :-(

Greg.P.
John Turner - 24 Jul 2007 08:35 GMT
> I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they
> have problems!
> NZ is much like Holland built on a circa 45 degree (average) slope -
> when the water reaches the roofs things tend to get washed away! OTOH we
> do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops
> 300mm in 24 hours.

We've had all of that in the past month or so.

John.
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 20:41 GMT
> > I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they
> > have problems!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> We've had all of that in the past month or so.

Us too - while we are still cleaning up from the flood 3 months ago!

Greg.P.
NZ
Jane Sullivan - 24 Jul 2007 07:50 GMT
>We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year
>flood 3 months ago.

Who makes up these idiotic probabilities?
Signature

Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

John Turner - 24 Jul 2007 08:36 GMT
> Who makes up these idiotic probabilities?

Usually the media.

John.
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 20:39 GMT
> >We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year
> >flood 3 months ago.
>
> Who makes up these idiotic probabilities?

The question has been asked here too!
Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I
imagined. The weather experts say that it's a case of how often we can
expect rainfall events of the amounts experienced, based on rainfall
records. - which makes some sense.

Greg.P.
John Turner - 24 Jul 2007 20:49 GMT
> The question has been asked here too!
> Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I
> imagined. The weather experts say that it's a case of how often we can
> expect rainfall events of the amounts experienced, based on rainfall
> records. - which makes some sense.

On past records we should expect the start of the next Ice Age - in my
humble estimation it's a likely as man-made global warming.

John.
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 21:30 GMT
> > The question has been asked here too!
> > Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> John.

In that case I'll buy a new winter coat!
There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that
sea levels are rising - by the time it's proved that the cause is
man-made (or not) you Brits are going to be major consumers of snorkels!

Regards,
Greg.P.
John Turner - 25 Jul 2007 00:04 GMT
> In that case I'll buy a new winter coat!
> There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that
> sea levels are rising - by the time it's proved that the cause is
> man-made (or not) you Brits are going to be major consumers of snorkels!

LOL - but FFS don't say that, I've just bought another home within
three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain!
Could be worse, could have bought in Gloucester!

John.
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 00:12 GMT
> > In that case I'll buy a new winter coat!
> > There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain!
> Could be worse, could have bought in Gloucester!

Well, I don't know one way or the other, but I'm sufficiently convinced
as to buy my current home well away from the seaside. If the scientists
(95% of them) are right I'll have to cope with damp seasiders looking
for shelter, if they're wrong I've bought in an area that has strong
tourist potential for those who don't like sand in their togs.

Greg.P.
kim - 25 Jul 2007 00:35 GMT
>> In that case I'll buy a new winter coat!
>> There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> LOL - but FFS don't say that, I've just bought another home within
> three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain!

On the positive side there is a RNLI lifeboat moored permanently in the
Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of Trinity House.

(kim)
MartinS - 25 Jul 2007 00:39 GMT
> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of
> Trinity House.

What happened to Lledo's Lifeboat series? I have a couple somewhere.

Signature

Martin S.

kim - 26 Jul 2007 18:19 GMT
>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> What happened to Lledo's Lifeboat series? I have a couple somewhere.

What scale are they? I ask because the only Lledo bus in my collection is
1/87.

(kim)
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 21:38 GMT
> >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> (kim)

Did Lledo accidentally do a bus in 1:87 scale? Which one???
I wouldn't mind having one, but the scales seem to be all over the place
like the old Matchbox toys.

Regards,
Greg.P.
kim - 26 Jul 2007 23:09 GMT
>> >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
>> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Did Lledo accidentally do a bus in 1:87 scale? Which one???

The AEC Renown 6-wheel pre-war double-decker. It was mistakenly sold to me
as being "1/100th scale" but placing it alongside a 1/76 scale bus shows it
to be almost exactly 1/87. They are quite easy to find.

(kim)
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 23:30 GMT
> >> >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
> >> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> as being "1/100th scale" but placing it alongside a 1/76 scale bus shows it
> to be almost exactly 1/87. They are quite easy to find.

All Lledo is difficult to find here in NZ. I'll look out for one though.
MartinS - 27 Jul 2007 05:52 GMT
> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote...
>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> What scale are they? I ask because the only Lledo bus in my collection
> is 1/87.

Dunno, but bigger than that.

Lledo/Corgi now produce Trackside trucks, vans and cars in 1:76.

Signature

Martin S.

kim - 27 Jul 2007 14:31 GMT
>> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote...
>>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Lledo/Corgi now produce Trackside trucks, vans and cars in 1:76.

The only web reference I could find said the lifeboats were 1/64 but they
also said that about the AEC Renown so probably not a reliable a source.

(kim)
beamendsltd - 27 Jul 2007 16:47 GMT
> >> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote...
> >>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> The only web reference I could find said the lifeboats were 1/64 but they
> also said that about the AEC Renown so probably not a reliable a source.

A miss-print for 1/6 farthing?  ;-)

> (kim)

Richard

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Greg Procter - 28 Jul 2007 05:24 GMT
> > >> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote...
> > >>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> A miss-print for 1/6 farthing?  ;-)

I've come across quarter farthing pieces, but 1/6th???
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 01:35 GMT
> >> In that case I'll buy a new winter coat!
> >> There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> (kim)

... swimming distance ...
John Turner - 25 Jul 2007 08:21 GMT
> On the positive side there is a RNLI lifeboat moored permanently in the
> Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of Trinity
> House.

It's 25 miles plus to the lifeboat station on Spurn Point and a crossing of
the estuary and at least a 7 mile walk to Trinity House.

The inshore inflatable life-raft is nearer - last seen evacuating flood
victims from the centre of Anlaby.

John.
John Nuttall - 24 Jul 2007 13:05 GMT
> Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
> away!
> We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year
> flood 3 months ago.

3 months ago could have been the end of the last 120 years and last week
could have been the start of the next 150 years.

Signature

Regards

John

Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 20:43 GMT
> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
> > away!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 3 months ago could have been the end of the last 120 years and last week
> could have been the start of the next 150 years.

I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change.
simon - 24 Jul 2007 23:38 GMT
>> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
>> > away!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change.

Very possible, it has ben changing for at least the last 3000 million years.

cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 24 Jul 2007 23:48 GMT
> >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
> >> > away!
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Very possible, it has ben changing for at least the last 3000 million years.

Too true, but the changes over the last 2 million have not been great
enough to wipe us out.
Not to worry, it's only the low lying countries likely to disappear in
my lifetime.
simon - 25 Jul 2007 00:01 GMT
>> >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
>> >> > away!
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Not to worry, it's only the low lying countries likely to disappear in
> my lifetime.
Assuming thats the potential to wipe us out - we are different now. Should I
consult a text book to check when the last ice age receded as far as Britain
is concerned. Fairly sure its less than 2 million years ago.
Of course you may have a different definition of 'us'.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 00:07 GMT
> >> >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed
> >> >> > away!
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> is concerned. Fairly sure its less than 2 million years ago.
> Of course you may have a different definition of 'us'.

I'm not here to argue climate change - it's happening and it's happening
much faster than it's happened in the past. If it's being caused by
humanity then by the time we prove that cause it will be too late to
stop that change.
simon - 25 Jul 2007 00:15 GMT
>> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I'm not here to argue climate change - it's happening and it's happening
> much faster than it's happened in the past.
Are you sure about that ?

If it's being caused by
> humanity then by the time we prove that cause it will be too late to
> stop that change.
But until you are reasonably certain about the previous bit this isnt even
relevent.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 00:24 GMT
> >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change.
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> But until you are reasonably certain about the previous bit this isnt even
> relevent.

We're reasonably certain.
simon - 25 Jul 2007 00:25 GMT
>> >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate
>> >> >> > change.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> We're reasonably certain.
We're not.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 01:35 GMT
> >> >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate
> >> >> >> > change.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> > We're reasonably certain.
> We're not.

That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree
with the concept - there's none so blind ...

Regards,
Greg.P.
John Turner - 25 Jul 2007 08:23 GMT
> That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree
> with the concept - there's none so blind ...

Call me a cynic but I reckon the whole concept has been designed as a tool
to facilitate increased taxation.

John.
beamendsltd - 25 Jul 2007 09:14 GMT
> > That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree
> > with the concept - there's none so blind ...
>
> Call me a cynic but I reckon the whole concept has been designed as a tool
> to facilitate increased taxation.

I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon",
i.e. social control mechanism!

If there is warming, then doubltless mans activities won't be helping.
However, the Romans grew grapes in Southern Scotland, and the Thames
froze over in Dicken's time - these fit in with climate cycles that
were accepted before global warming was invented - I believe Britain
is on average much cooler than it is now though. The trouble is, the
above points are never mentioned when global warming is mentioned
by the Pro lobby, so I don't know if/how it is included in their
models, or to what extent current chnage is natural. Remember, the
"whole" scientific community thought DDT was dead safe except for a few
crackpot's - who turned out to be right?

I'm not convinced either way - but I do now that twice-weekly bin
collections are not going to save the planet, and being vegetarian
has nothing to do with being "environmental" - until such claptrap
is removed from the debate the public are going to remain very cynical,
and quite right too!

> John.

Richard

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manatbandq@hotmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 12:03 GMT
> In message <13aduirrlqac...@news.supernews.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> "whole" scientific community thought DDT was dead safe except for a few
> crackpot's - who turned out to be right?

The "crackpots" to an extent. That's why it's being re-introduced for
mosquito control in Africa.

MBQ
John Turner - 25 Jul 2007 19:16 GMT
> I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon",
> i.e. social control mechanism!

Funny how often you hear comments like it's been the hottest June since 1920
or the wettist July since 1870 - which seems to suggest that global warming
was potentially a bigger issue in those days - except of course no one had
heard of it then!

John.
Greg Procter - 25 Jul 2007 21:23 GMT
> > I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon",
> > i.e. social control mechanism!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> John.

You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!

Regards,
Greg.P.
John Turner - 26 Jul 2007 00:26 GMT
> You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!

Am I?  Is there any difference to be confused about.

Global warming has been a fact of life throughout the history of our bit of
the universe (except of course during those periods of global cooling in the
run up to each of the ice ages!).

John.
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 08:48 GMT
> > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!
>
> Am I?

I don't know that - it's a guess.

> Is there any difference to be confused about.

Yes, which takes us back to the previous question.

> Global warming has been a fact of life throughout the history of our bit of
> the universe (except of course during those periods of global cooling in the
> run up to each of the ice ages!).

We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the
present rate?
The changes in the past have taken thousands of years, other than after
specific events.

Greg.P.
beamendsltd - 26 Jul 2007 12:32 GMT
> > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The changes in the past have taken thousands of years, other than after
> specific events.

Someones just found evidence that climate has changed rapidly in the
past too - I think it was ice cores from the Arctic. Might have been
the Antarctic. Or Greenland (which was, in Viking times, but now contains
8% of the worlds fresh water - which is a rapid change in my book). I
can't find the article now (most likely on the BBC Science site), but
it does indicate that the full story isn't yet known - which leaves
me wondering just what assumptions are built into the model used.

> Greg.P.

Richard

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Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 21:33 GMT
> > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> it does indicate that the full story isn't yet known - which leaves
> me wondering just what assumptions are built into the model used.

"we don't know precisely so we aren't going to worry" doesn't cut it
with me.

If someone says to me "If you stand there you're going to get run over
by a bus" I don't demand to know the colour of the bus nor it's precise
timetable or a hundred other minor details before moving.
simon - 26 Jul 2007 22:30 GMT
>> > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!
>> > >
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> by a bus" I don't demand to know the colour of the bus nor it's precise
> timetable or a hundred other minor details before moving.

Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long way
to go before being proven. This you can see by reviewing scientific
literature by those few people that have some understanding of the subject.

Similarly that it is significantly affected by human activities is a theory
under discussion.

So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested.
As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain
people have used to mess us about - councils and government persons
especially. Most of their proposals will make effectively zero change to
global warming whilst having much greater unintended consequences - ok maybe
not with tax as it could be just another excuse to grab more for gordon.
However emptying bins every 2 weeks instead of 1 will help the rats but but
cause us health problems as well as increase fly tipping. It wont reduce
waste and will increase CO2 as it means most householders have to go to the
dump. So instead of one lorry we have a few hundred cars.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 22:42 GMT
> >> > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures!
> >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Similarly that it is significantly affected by human activities is a theory
> under discussion.

Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid
by the US government to pick holes in the theories.
Every scenario is a therory until it actually happens.

> So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested.
> As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> waste and will increase CO2 as it means most householders have to go to the
> dump. So instead of one lorry we have a few hundred cars.

Meanswhile, Pacific atolls are disappearing under water and their
inhabitants are forced to move here. The weather patterns are changing
drastically (Australia - 5 years drought, NZ - weather going to extremes
etc etc) Scientific indications are that the changes may well snowball,
ice in the Arctic and Antarctic are rapidly diminishing ...

> Cheers,
> Simon
John Turner - 26 Jul 2007 22:50 GMT
> Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid
> by the US government to pick holes in the theories.

I thought the 5% of non-adherents were being actively discouraged by all
governments, who seem hell-bent on using GW as an excuse for switching the
balance of taxation further from the rich to the poor.

I think we flatter ourselves that we're able to influence the nature to such
an extent with our every-day activities, unless of course if you include
cataclysmic events such as exploding nuclear devices and other major
military activities.  I wonder how much the invasion of Iraq and the UN's
involvement in Afghanistan are affecting climate change - I suspect probably
more than our governments would wish us to know.

John.
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 23:28 GMT
> > Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid
> > by the US government to pick holes in the theories.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I think we flatter ourselves that we're able to influence the nature to such
> an extent with our every-day activities,

We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster
than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable  from
ice cores.

> unless of course if you include
> cataclysmic events such as exploding nuclear devices and other major
> military activities.  I wonder how much the invasion of Iraq and the UN's
> involvement in Afghanistan are affecting climate change - I suspect probably
> more than our governments would wish us to know.

I hadn't particularly considered that - it certainly has an effect
locally.

> John.
{R} - 27 Jul 2007 16:04 GMT
In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
<procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

}We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster
}than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable  from
}ice cores.

Methane is a considerably more important than CO2, just because they cannot
measure it or in otherwise screw up does not fact make.

26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting.

{R}
Greg Procter - 28 Jul 2007 05:21 GMT
> In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
> <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> 26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting.

That would leave 74% from manufacturing, transport, lighting, heating
...
Here in NZ we have a high proportion of farting cows, but on the plus
side the cows are producing either dairy or meat products which get
eaten by the consumers of the other 74%.
- if we cut cow fart polution you don't eat.
- If you turn off the lights you don't need, travel by more efficient
means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't
have to suffer the problems caused by your polution.
beamendsltd - 28 Jul 2007 11:23 GMT
> > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
> > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't
> have to suffer the problems caused by your polution.

That sounds suspiciously like the "let's blame the Chinese and
Indians" argument - i.e. we don't pollute, we don't have the factories
etc, yet demand the demand the cheapest possible goods from somewhere
else. The Swiss are just as guilty of causing global pollution as
the Chinese despite not being into heavy industry, since they buy
goods from China. If I offered an range of "environmently sound"
parts at twice the price no one would buy them, even the do-gooders.
*Everyone*, whether they care to admit it or not, does "do as I say,
not as I do".

Richard

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Greg Procter - 28 Jul 2007 22:42 GMT
> > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
> > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> *Everyone*, whether they care to admit it or not, does "do as I say,
> not as I do".

Here in NZ we're being blamed for cows farting - our cows mostly fart
for export markets, just as China's factories belch polution for
Britain, Europe, the US etc.
beamendsltd - 29 Jul 2007 14:31 GMT
> > > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
> > > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> for export markets, just as China's factories belch polution for
> Britain, Europe, the US etc.

No one in the real world blames you (NZ, not you personaly... I hope),
it's just the "Don't I sound clever saying this" brigade making
fools of themselves - typically 2.2 kids (or potential for)
and 2 "prestiege" cars, commute miles to work, work in an air
conditioned office with trendy utterly inneficient lighting, fly
to Barcelona for the weekend because it's "cool", use bottled water,
buy organic food flown in from Africa etc etc, but consider
themseleves "environmental" because they own a bycicle and once
had a Greenpeace poster on their wall at University.

Probably a tad harsh, be we used to get them (I've not been to the
pub since the ban, so I suppose they are still about) in the
village completely misleading their kids as to how the cuntryside
works.

Richard

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Greg Procter - 29 Jul 2007 21:46 GMT
> > > > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
> > > > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> village completely misleading their kids as to how the cuntryside
> works.

We have government departments and private research institutes busy
figuring out how to stop cows farting!!!
We're panicking about the possibility of the "food-miles" concept taking
hold in Europe.
Our economy is based on primary produce - we can produce and deliver to
markets around the world cheaper than they/you can produce at your own
front doors and we can keep doing that even if fuel rises to ten times
it's present cost (with the odd casualty like say strawberries ...)
Your "Don't I sound clever saying this" brigade could destroy our
economy overnight if their illfounded concepts were accepted by the
majority or EU officials decided to introduce some distance limit on
produce.
OTOH a terrorist bomb in (say) Blackpool or Spain could overload our
tourist facilities again.

Greg.P.
NZ
{R} - 28 Jul 2007 15:46 GMT
In uk.rec.models.rail on Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:23:06 +1200, Greg Procter
<procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

}{R} wrote:
}>
}> In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter
}> <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
}>
}> }We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster
}> }than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable  from
}> }ice cores.
}>
}> Methane is a considerably more important than CO2, just because they cannot
}> measure it or in otherwise screw up does not fact make.
}>
}> 26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting.
}
}That would leave 74% from manufacturing, transport, lighting, heating

Possibly but trees and green stuff needs to take up carbon dioxide and
emits oxygen.

People convert Oxygen to CO2

}Here in NZ we have a high proportion of farting cows, but on the plus
}side the cows are producing either dairy or meat products which get
}eaten by the consumers of the other 74%.
}- if we cut cow fart polution you don't eat.
}- If you turn off the lights you don't need, travel by more efficient
}means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't
}have to suffer the problems caused by your polution.

Don't worry you are doing your share, we have just been doing it longer :)

How little is to do with manufacturing etc is still up for debate :)

{R}
simon - 26 Jul 2007 23:29 GMT
>> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long
>> way
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid
> by the US government to pick holes in the theories.

not seen those figures before nor how they were derived so cannot comment.

> Every scenario is a therory until it actually happens.

but very few do happen.

> Meanswhile, Pacific atolls are disappearing under water and their
> inhabitants are forced to move here. The weather patterns are changing
> drastically (Australia - 5 years drought, NZ - weather going to extremes
> etc etc) Scientific indications are that the changes may well snowball,
> ice in the Arctic and Antarctic are rapidly diminishing ...

Like I said its a theory thats under discussion and a long way from proven.
So you mentioning a few situations means absolutly nothing.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 23:44 GMT
> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long
> >> way
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> but very few do happen.

How many do you need to happen?
simon - 27 Jul 2007 00:03 GMT
>> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long
>> >> way
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> How many do you need to happen?

Well for that sstatement to be useful i would say all of them.

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 27 Jul 2007 03:52 GMT
> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long
> >> >> way
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Well for that sstatement to be useful i would say all of them.

Err, for predictions of total human disaster, one would seem to be
sufficient.
simon - 28 Jul 2007 00:57 GMT
>> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a
>> >> >> long
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Err, for predictions of total human disaster, one would seem to be
> sufficient.
So if there are a million scenarios and one of them happened then the others
will follow as sure as ...
Nope, dont think so.
Greg Procter - 28 Jul 2007 05:32 GMT
> >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a
> >> >> >> long
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> will follow as sure as ...
> Nope, dont think so.

Ok, stand in the bus lane and keep telling me you haven't been run over!
;-)

The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is
occuring and that human actions are causing that effect.
5% disagree and claim natural causes.
0.1% claim global warming isn't happening.
I'm confident that the changes won't be too drastic in my lifetime (the
loss of a few million Brits and yanks is neither here nor there) but in
100 years my grandchildren and their children are almost certainly going
to be in trouble from our generation's actions.

Greg.P.
simon - 28 Jul 2007 23:51 GMT
>> >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has
>> >> >> >> a
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Ok, stand in the bus lane and keep telling me you haven't been run over!
> ;-)

But by that reasoning then its not safe to go out cos someone has been run
over a bus, eaton by a lion, shot, met gordon Brown, hit by lightning etc
and lots of etcs.

> The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is
> occuring and that human actions are causing that effect.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Greg.P.

But 99.99999% of scientists dont know enough about the subject. More
important than numbers are the quality of the arguments put forward. Of
course everyone only really listents to the bit they want to hear so are
very unlikely to be converted to the other side !

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 29 Jul 2007 03:28 GMT
> >> >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has
> >> >> >> >> a
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> over a bus, eaton by a lion, shot, met gordon Brown, hit by lightning etc
> and lots of etcs.

I agree, it's not safe! OTOH we take many of the necessary precautions,
such as not standing in the bus lane with our backs to the traffic flow.

> > The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is
> > occuring and that human actions are causing that effect.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> course everyone only really listents to the bit they want to hear so are
> very unlikely to be converted to the other side !

I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid
standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even
though there's no bus timetabled until the morning.

Regards,
Greg.P.
simon - 29 Jul 2007 21:51 GMT
> I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid
> standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even
> though there's no bus timetabled until the morning.
>
> Regards,
> Greg.P.

Cant see any basis for comparison between chance of a bus and global
warming. Are you thinking that GW will not appear when you expect it then
several will appear at once ?

Cheers,
Simon
Greg Procter - 29 Jul 2007 22:01 GMT
> > I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid
> > standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Cant see any basis for comparison between chance of a bus and global
> warming.

Both are rumoured to be coming any minute now.
Both will run you down if you don't pay heed to their approach.
:-)

> Are you thinking that GW will not appear when you expect it then
> several will appear at once ?

Absolutely!

Regards,
Greg.P.
John Turner - 27 Jul 2007 14:06 GMT
> So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested.
> As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain
> people have used to mess us about - councils and government persons
> especially. Most of their proposals will make effectively zero change to
> global warming whilst having much greater unintended consequences

Didn't our former Prime Minister recently sign up to an accord wherein we
all have to cut our personal carbon footprint by something approaching 65%?

I read that to achieve that we'd all have to give up our cars, stop heating
&/or air-conditioning our homes and effectively stop using any domestic
applicances such as freezers, televisions and the like, plus quit taking
flights for package holidays etc., etc...

We've SIGNED UP FOR THIS which means , being Englishmen, we'll actually go
for it - or be very heavily taxed!!!

Now the cynic in me (I prefer to think I'm a realist) just accepts this is
what Global Warming is all about - MORE TAXATION - but scare the population
stupid in the meantime so they come to accept that this increased taxation
is necessary!

John.
kim - 27 Jul 2007 14:13 GMT
>> So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested.
>> As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> domestic applicances such as freezers, televisions and the like, plus quit
> taking flights for package holidays etc., etc...

The Prime Minister's advisor on this subject - the one who called Ryanair
"Public Enemy Number One" - commutes between Birningham and Aberdeen every
day by private jet! He declined to be interviewed on the subject.

(kim)
beamendsltd - 27 Jul 2007 15:49 GMT
> > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested.
> > As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> stupid in the meantime so they come to accept that this increased taxation
> is necessary!

I've yet to meed anyone who accepts that taxation will help people
worry about the environment (most will indeed worry, but not about
the environment), and those who I heard on radio/tv/in
the papers supporting it are noticabely from London and seem to think
that public transport up to London standards is available throughout
he entire country, even in the middle of the Peak Park or Yorkshire
Dales etc. Our nice new Glorious Leader spouts the same inconsistent
tosh - on his first day in office he says he's determined to get
people out of their cars, yet is allowing sub-post offices to close
forcing people to use their cars more. Until the Government/environmetal
lobby get real, they are likely to have the opposite effect by
setting themselves up for ridicule.

> John.

Richard

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www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk       sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
             I have become... comfortably numb

kim - 27 Jul 2007 15:30 GMT
>> > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is
>> > suggested.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> people out of their cars, yet is allowing sub-post offices to close
> forcing people to use their cars more.

Gordon is not merely "allowing" sub post offices, he is _forcing_ them to
close. There's a difference. Main post offices and sorting offices are also
now being closed. The rump of the business which survives will be sold to
Rupert Murdoch and renamed "Royal TNT Mail". The latter will stop paying
regular wages and force postmen to rely on commission based on the amount of
junk mail they force through people's letterboxes.

(kim)
John Turner - 26 Jul 2007 22:42 GMT
> We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the
> present rate?

I've no idea Greg, because despite rumours to the contrary I've not been
around for the last few million years.  Who's to say that there haven't been
similar temperature blips in the past?

John.
Greg Procter - 26 Jul 2007 23:26 GMT
> > We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the
> > present rate?
>
> I've no idea Greg, because despite rumours to the contrary I've not been
> around for the last few million years.  

I stand corrected. ;-)

> Who's to say that there haven't been
> similar temperature blips in the past?

There have, but they've been caused by specific events such as asteroid
strikes and volcanic activity.
estarriol - 26 Jul 2007 23:33 GMT
>> > We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at
>> > the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> There have, but they've been caused by specific events such as asteroid
> strikes and volcanic activity.

You forgot to add, we think on the end of that statement.

Geologically a rapid change in temp is measured in thousands of years.
simon - 26 Jul 2007 23:41 GMT
>>> > We