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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2007Lima OO scale
Can anyone kindly advise: I have acquired some Lima rolling stock, supposedly all OO gauge, but some are distinctly smaller than others – for instance mark 2 (I think it is) Inter-City carriages some 264 mm long and some 232 mm long (and corresponding width & height). Track gauge is the same. How come different scales? Thanks On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, > Can anyone kindly advise: > I have acquired some Lima rolling stock, supposedly all OO gauge, but some > are distinctly smaller than others – for instance mark 2 (I think it is) > Inter-City carriages some 264 mm long and some 232 mm long (and > corresponding width & height). Track gauge is the same. > How come different scales? Lima made some MkII stock to HO scale, as well as to OO. There was also a Class 33 to HO scale, as well as some Pullman coaches. The track gauge is correct for HO scale, but OO people run on narrow gauge track :-) I have a set for dale at some point!  SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ > On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, >> Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have a set for dale at some point! They also did a 4f in HO with coachs, but I can't remember what the coachs were based on. > > On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, > >> Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They also did a 4f in HO with coachs, but I can't remember what the coachs > were based on. Opps, forgot freelance coach in GWR livery for toy train sets. > On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, >> Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have a set for dale at some point! I'm sure dale will be very happy about that ;-) Ian J. On 14/07/2007 15:06, Ian J. said, > I'm sure dale will be very happy about that ;-) Whoops :-) SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ > On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, > > Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Paul Boyd > http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ I model British HO! I need more Mk IIs. There were 3 different Mk Is in a variety colours. I think 4 different Mk IIs in blue/grey. Pullmans were freelance European in BR brown/grey. 2 brake vans LMS + GWR HSO Box van. BR 33 green and blue. 4F Assorted European wagons, locos in BR markings. Regards, Greg.P. NZ >> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, >> > Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Greg.P. > NZ So who would be daft enough to buy Lima 4F without realising its HO ? Ok, there was a good reason as well as its unboxed and cheap. So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it be converted into something that was rebuilt with a belpaire boiler ? Anon > >> On 14/07/2007 13:00, Mike Brayshaw said, > >> > Can anyone kindly advise: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > NZ > So who would be daft enough to buy Lima 4F without realising its HO ? I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time period. > Ok, there was a good reason as well as its unboxed and cheap. > > So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was > hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it be > converted into something that was rebuilt with a belpaire boiler ? I bought a couple (cheaper than cheap) that had been converted by someone who owned a breadknife, UHU, a toothpaste tube carton, ballpoint pen (broken), black housepaint and a three inch brush. One had the Belpaire box cut off and card glued over the hole, a shortened cab roof and the tender coal bunker altered. The other had similar mods to the cab and tender with ribs across the roof and a "V" chimney from BIC. Leaving aside the quality of the alterations, the results didn't look like 4Fs! Greg.P. > I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical > German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time > period. And it will also illustrate the relative quality of model offering to the German and British markets. I somehow suspect that the German locomotive will be better modelled AND better engineered. John. >> I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical >> German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > German and British markets. I somehow suspect that the German locomotive > will be better modelled AND better engineered. ...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis :o) (kim) > ...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis > :o) Greg didn't state the age of his German freight loco; if it's of a similar age to some of the ones I have then it will be without steam roller tyres and pastry-cutter flanges. None of my Bavarian locos have red chassis. I seem to recall that Tri-ang models didn't exactly have fine-scale wheels. John. >> ...with steam roller tyres, pastry-cutter flanges and bright red chassis >> :o) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I seem to recall that Tri-ang models didn't exactly have fine-scale > wheels. Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o) (kim) > Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings > with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o) Not at all, I've got a delightful little Bavarian 'Mallet' 0-4-4-0T loco made by Roco (admittedly they're Austrian) which cost well below GBP100.00 and a Fleischmann Bavarian 2-4-0T loco and three equisite 4-wheel coach set which was around GBP150.00. None of these have steam roller tyres or pastry-cutter flanges, and if anything have finer wheel standards than either Bachmann or Hornby's latest offerings, and although both are small locos, I doubt whether either of the principle British outline manufacturers could get them to the market any cheaper bearing in mind the detail and quality performance. My reference to Tri-ang models was in comparisoon with contemporary German models. Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but the quality of their mechanisms made up for that. John. >> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings >> with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > either of the principle British outline manufacturers could get them to > the market any cheaper bearing in mind the detail and quality performance. That's possibly why they're not (currently) bankrupt :o) > My reference to Tri-ang models was in comparisoon with contemporary German > models. Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but > the quality of their mechanisms made up for that. I agree, the krauts/squareheads/bosch make superb mechanisms but the final product still looks like a brightly coloured toy. The same goes for their buildings and vehicles in 3.5mm scale. (kim) >>> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings >>> with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I agree, the krauts/squareheads/bosch make superb mechanisms but the final >product still looks like a brightly coloured toy. Have you tried weathering them? > The same goes for their >buildings and vehicles in 3.5mm scale. > >(kim) SignatureJane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html >>>> Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing >>>> shillings [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Have you tried weathering them? I've tried weathering 1/76th scale military models in the past and it was an unmitigated disaster whereas I can buy British outline RTR railway models which have already been weathered for me. (kim) > > Are you comparing Tri-ang models made 50 years ago and costing shillings > > with German toys made today and costing hundreds of pounds? :o) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > models. Maybe the Germans stuck with coarse scale wheels for longer, but > the quality of their mechanisms made up for that. I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had aquired over there. I was toatally bemused I'm affraid - they did indeed have steam roller wheels and pastry cutter flanges, and worse, the sharpness of the detail on the body was no where near as sharp as the then new Hornby Evening Star, hand rails etc were grossly over scale and the valave gear was "clumsy". They may or may not have had better motors, but at that age that didn't matter! I've no idea how they compare these days (I'm into 0 gauge), but I did see a review of two Class 37 models on a magazine web site recently (can't remember the two makers), and I was rather surprised at the conclusion as to which was "better" - the points that struck me were that one had better representation of fans than the other, which was nice, but the suggested "better" one had most of the nose detail missing (glaringly, lamp brackets). For me, I would have rated them as models (obviously I've not seen them run) as the same - both "flawed", though that's not do damn either of them. It good old horses for courses again (with a lrage dollop of form and functionality) - one of the factors in deciding to go '0' rather than do '00' again was that I have to make everything, and if I get it wrong it's my problem! > John. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in > about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had > aquired over there. I was toatally bemused I'm affraid - they > did indeed have steam roller wheels and pastry cutter flanges, But that was 30 years ago! The Germans may have been slow starters but they caught up a fair while ago and have now surpassed even the best of Bachmann and Hornby! John. John. >> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in >> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they caught up a fair while ago and have now surpassed even the best of > Bachmann and Hornby! How about comparing like-with-like John? This is an image of a Roco 3.5mm scale Class 08 shunter painted in BR colours by Martin Wykes:- http://www.british-ho.freeserve.co.uk/images/m-wykes_roco_ee-shunter_br-blue_2.jpg Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or Hornby 4mm incarnations? Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to tell how that compares. (kim) >>> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in >>> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or >Hornby 4mm incarnations? It's a fairly old model. Michael Andress did some articles in one of the magazines more than 20 years ago. He was doing British HO using what was available. For its era it was a heck of a lot better than the Hornby product which didn't even have outside frames. >Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to >tell how that compares. > >(kim) > How about comparing like-with-like John? > > This is an image of a Roco 3.5mm scale Class 08 shunter painted in BR > colours by Martin Wykes:- But that Roco model must have been tooled at least 25 years ago. You'd have to compare it with the Hornby 08 of the same era. John. >> How about comparing like-with-like John? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But that Roco model must have been tooled at least 25 years ago. You'd > have to compare it with the Hornby 08 of the same era. How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in 4mm scale? (kim) > How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in > 4mm scale? None - especially with both Bachmann & Hornby having similar offerings at around half that price; but even then you're not really comparing like-for-like. If your question were rephrased to ask 'how many of my customers would pay £110 for say a high quality model of a G5 0-4-4T or maybe a high standard model of a J25 0-6-0' (both similarly specialised models peculiar to a specific area) then I'd suggest quite a few. John. >> How many of your customers would be willing to pay £110 for a Class 08 in >> 4mm scale? > >None - especially with both Bachmann & Hornby having similar offerings at >around half that price; but even then you're not really comparing >like-for-like. What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed? >If your question were rephrased to ask 'how many of my customers would pay >£110 for say a high quality model of a G5 0-4-4T or maybe a high standard >model of a J25 0-6-0' (both similarly specialised models peculiar to a >specific area) then I'd suggest quite a few. > >John. SignatureJane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html > What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed? I had a play with one of the newly re-issued Bachmann sound-equipped class 20s last night and have to say that even with the limited functionality of my Lenz Compact DCC set-up, I found the sound exciting. Not exciting enough to make me want one permanently (but that may be as a result of the limitations of my Compact) as I still fear there may be a boredom factor after a relatively short while. Now to your point, if an off-the-shelf, sound-equipped 08 was available I might be more tempted. It would be the ideal loco for a 'shunting plank' type layout, and sound might just add enough to generate more than the standard amount of interest with this simple type of layout. I suppose you could operate same with a class 20, and I reckon the sound would be more distinctive, but an 08 would have it for me for some reason. John. >> What about if that class 08 had a sound chip installed? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and I reckon the sound would be more distinctive, but an 08 would > have it for me for some reason. You're in the wrong scale John :-) Henk Oversloot has assembled an 08 from the 2mm SA kit. His has has DCC and Sound. Slow running on-track minimum speed is 5mins for one wheel revolution (48metres per minute scale, far slower than a real one can manage). Top speed is around a scale 30mph. Flywheel means the loco will run 0.5m if travelling at top speed and the power is shut-off. Only downside might be price; kit is ~£130 (includes wheels, motor, etc). Flywheel, DCC and sound chips extra. Another man's first time builder blog is available at: http://2mm-shunter-kit.blogspot.com/ - Nigel SignatureNigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/ > You're in the wrong scale John :-) I'm already modelling in 4mm scale and will be adding a 7mm layout when the opportunity arises - I think that's enough to occupy the remainder of my life! ;-) John. > >> I can well remember a friend returning from a spell in Germany in > >> about 1977 and triumphing his Fleischmann models that he had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Are you telling us this compares favourably with the latest Bachmann or > Hornby 4mm incarnations? That model was released while Hornby were still producing their 1950s Jinty chassied Class 08 without apology. > Sadly, I don't have a close up of Martin's Freightliner 66 so it's hard to > tell how that compares. > > (kim) > > I bought one _because_ it was HO. Now I can show visitors a typical > > German goods loco and a typical British goods loco of the same time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > German and British markets. I somehow suspect that the German locomotive > will be better modelled AND better engineered. Err, Lima also _claimed_ to model a German goods steam loco at about the same time, but it was much less recognisable than the 4F!!! Greg.P. >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was >> hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Greg.P. Wow my modelling skills described exactly. So what could it have looked like in the originators imagination. cheers, simon > >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab was > >> hacked a bit, swap chimney and dome for something pre-1900 then could it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Wow my modelling skills described exactly. So what could it have looked like > in the originators imagination. All British 0-6-0s look the same anyway! ;-) Greg.P. >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab >> >> was [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Greg.P. Only ones with tenders. Theres a big variation in tank types - saddle, pannier, well.. Cheers, Simon > >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the cab > >> >> was [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Cheers, > Simon True, but take away the tanks and they look just like British 0-6-0s without tenders fitted. ;-) Greg.P. >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the >> >> >> cab [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > without tenders fitted. > ;-) Maybe so but this is how BRITISH people react to floods:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/images/2007/07/23/floods_general_14_450x300.jpg (kim) > >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If the > >> >> >> cab [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > (kim) Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed away! We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year flood 3 months ago. >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If >> >> >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year > flood 3 months ago. In Holland we don't count floods until we're left clinging to the chimney on the roof :oP (kim) > >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If > >> >> >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > In Holland we don't count floods until we're left clinging to the chimney on > the roof :oP I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they have problems! NZ is much like Holland built on a circa 45 degree (average) slope - when the water reaches the roofs things tend to get washed away! OTOH we do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops 300mm in 24 hours. >> >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If >> >> >> >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops > 300mm in 24 hours. We don't believe they have had a flood in NZ unless their Locos wash up on Bondi Beach. Graeme Hearn > >> >> >> >> >> So now I see its about the same size as an 00 Cauliflower. If > >> >> >> >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > Bondi Beach. > Graeme Hearn They may well have washed up on Bondi beach as they're not back to running past here yet! :-( Greg.P. > I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they > have problems! > NZ is much like Holland built on a circa 45 degree (average) slope - > when the water reaches the roofs things tend to get washed away! OTOH we > do tend to lose the odd bridge and railway line when the rainfall tops > 300mm in 24 hours. We've had all of that in the past month or so. John. > > I didn't mean to denigrate Britain's floods - I'm sure they think they > > have problems! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We've had all of that in the past month or so. Us too - while we are still cleaning up from the flood 3 months ago! Greg.P. NZ >We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year >flood 3 months ago. Who makes up these idiotic probabilities? SignatureJane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html > >We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year > >flood 3 months ago. > > Who makes up these idiotic probabilities? The question has been asked here too! Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I imagined. The weather experts say that it's a case of how often we can expect rainfall events of the amounts experienced, based on rainfall records. - which makes some sense. Greg.P. > The question has been asked here too! > Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I > imagined. The weather experts say that it's a case of how often we can > expect rainfall events of the amounts experienced, based on rainfall > records. - which makes some sense. On past records we should expect the start of the next Ice Age - in my humble estimation it's a likely as man-made global warming. John. > > The question has been asked here too! > > Judging from the calender it's not a case of time going faster than I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John. In that case I'll buy a new winter coat! There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that sea levels are rising - by the time it's proved that the cause is man-made (or not) you Brits are going to be major consumers of snorkels! Regards, Greg.P. > In that case I'll buy a new winter coat! > There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that > sea levels are rising - by the time it's proved that the cause is > man-made (or not) you Brits are going to be major consumers of snorkels! LOL - but FFS don't say that, I've just bought another home within three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain! Could be worse, could have bought in Gloucester! John. > > In that case I'll buy a new winter coat! > > There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain! > Could be worse, could have bought in Gloucester! Well, I don't know one way or the other, but I'm sufficiently convinced as to buy my current home well away from the seaside. If the scientists (95% of them) are right I'll have to cope with damp seasiders looking for shelter, if they're wrong I've bought in an area that has strong tourist potential for those who don't like sand in their togs. Greg.P. >> In that case I'll buy a new winter coat! >> There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > LOL - but FFS don't say that, I've just bought another home within > three-quarters of a mile of the Humber Estuary and on its flood plain! On the positive side there is a RNLI lifeboat moored permanently in the Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of Trinity House. (kim) > "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of > Trinity House. What happened to Lledo's Lifeboat series? I have a couple somewhere. SignatureMartin S. >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > What happened to Lledo's Lifeboat series? I have a couple somewhere. What scale are they? I ask because the only Lledo bus in my collection is 1/87. (kim) > >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > (kim) Did Lledo accidentally do a bus in 1:87 scale? Which one??? I wouldn't mind having one, but the scales seem to be all over the place like the old Matchbox toys. Regards, Greg.P. >> >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Did Lledo accidentally do a bus in 1:87 scale? Which one??? The AEC Renown 6-wheel pre-war double-decker. It was mistakenly sold to me as being "1/100th scale" but placing it alongside a 1/76 scale bus shows it to be almost exactly 1/87. They are quite easy to find. (kim) > >> >> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... > >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > as being "1/100th scale" but placing it alongside a 1/76 scale bus shows it > to be almost exactly 1/87. They are quite easy to find. All Lledo is difficult to find here in NZ. I'll look out for one though. > "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote... >>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > What scale are they? I ask because the only Lledo bus in my collection > is 1/87. Dunno, but bigger than that. Lledo/Corgi now produce Trackside trucks, vans and cars in 1:76. SignatureMartin S. >> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote... >>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Lledo/Corgi now produce Trackside trucks, vans and cars in 1:76. The only web reference I could find said the lifeboats were 1/64 but they also said that about the AEC Renown so probably not a reliable a source. (kim) > >> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote... > >>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > The only web reference I could find said the lifeboats were 1/64 but they > also said that about the AEC Renown so probably not a reliable a source. A miss-print for 1/6 farthing? ;-) > (kim) Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > > >> "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote... > > >>>> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > A miss-print for 1/6 farthing? ;-) I've come across quarter farthing pieces, but 1/6th??? > >> In that case I'll buy a new winter coat! > >> There's no question but that the weather paterns are changing and that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > (kim) ... swimming distance ... > On the positive side there is a RNLI lifeboat moored permanently in the > Humber Estuary. You are also within easy walking distance of Trinity > House. It's 25 miles plus to the lifeboat station on Spurn Point and a crossing of the estuary and at least a 7 mile walk to Trinity House. The inshore inflatable life-raft is nearer - last seen evacuating flood victims from the centre of Anlaby. John. > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed > away! > We had a 1 in 150 year flood the week before last and a 1 in 120 year > flood 3 months ago. 3 months ago could have been the end of the last 120 years and last week could have been the start of the next 150 years. SignatureRegards John > > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed > > away! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 3 months ago could have been the end of the last 120 years and last week > could have been the start of the next 150 years. I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change. >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed >> > away! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change. Very possible, it has ben changing for at least the last 3000 million years. cheers, Simon > >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed > >> > away! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Very possible, it has ben changing for at least the last 3000 million years. Too true, but the changes over the last 2 million have not been great enough to wipe us out. Not to worry, it's only the low lying countries likely to disappear in my lifetime. >> >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed >> >> > away! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Not to worry, it's only the low lying countries likely to disappear in > my lifetime. Assuming thats the potential to wipe us out - we are different now. Should I consult a text book to check when the last ice age receded as far as Britain is concerned. Fairly sure its less than 2 million years ago. Of course you may have a different definition of 'us'. Cheers, Simon > >> >> > Around here we don't count floods until the road-rollers get washed > >> >> > away! [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > is concerned. Fairly sure its less than 2 million years ago. > Of course you may have a different definition of 'us'. I'm not here to argue climate change - it's happening and it's happening much faster than it's happened in the past. If it's being caused by humanity then by the time we prove that cause it will be too late to stop that change. >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I'm not here to argue climate change - it's happening and it's happening > much faster than it's happened in the past. Are you sure about that ? If it's being caused by > humanity then by the time we prove that cause it will be too late to > stop that change. But until you are reasonably certain about the previous bit this isnt even relevent. Cheers, Simon > >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate change. > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > But until you are reasonably certain about the previous bit this isnt even > relevent. We're reasonably certain. >> >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate >> >> >> > change. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > We're reasonably certain. We're not. Cheers, Simon > >> >> >> > I'm more inclined to think we have some evidence of climate > >> >> >> > change. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > We're reasonably certain. > We're not. That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree with the concept - there's none so blind ... Regards, Greg.P. > That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree > with the concept - there's none so blind ... Call me a cynic but I reckon the whole concept has been designed as a tool to facilitate increased taxation. John. > > That's because you prefer to listen to the 5% of scientists who disagree > > with the concept - there's none so blind ... > > Call me a cynic but I reckon the whole concept has been designed as a tool > to facilitate increased taxation. I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon", i.e. social control mechanism! If there is warming, then doubltless mans activities won't be helping. However, the Romans grew grapes in Southern Scotland, and the Thames froze over in Dicken's time - these fit in with climate cycles that were accepted before global warming was invented - I believe Britain is on average much cooler than it is now though. The trouble is, the above points are never mentioned when global warming is mentioned by the Pro lobby, so I don't know if/how it is included in their models, or to what extent current chnage is natural. Remember, the "whole" scientific community thought DDT was dead safe except for a few crackpot's - who turned out to be right? I'm not convinced either way - but I do now that twice-weekly bin collections are not going to save the planet, and being vegetarian has nothing to do with being "environmental" - until such claptrap is removed from the debate the public are going to remain very cynical, and quite right too! > John. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > In message <13aduirrlqac...@news.supernews.com> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "whole" scientific community thought DDT was dead safe except for a few > crackpot's - who turned out to be right? The "crackpots" to an extent. That's why it's being re-introduced for mosquito control in Africa. MBQ > I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon", > i.e. social control mechanism! Funny how often you hear comments like it's been the hottest June since 1920 or the wettist July since 1870 - which seems to suggest that global warming was potentially a bigger issue in those days - except of course no one had heard of it then! John. > > I'm even more cynical - it's a fund raiser, plus it's the new "religeon", > > i.e. social control mechanism! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John. You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! Regards, Greg.P. > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! Am I? Is there any difference to be confused about. Global warming has been a fact of life throughout the history of our bit of the universe (except of course during those periods of global cooling in the run up to each of the ice ages!). John. > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! > > Am I? I don't know that - it's a guess. > Is there any difference to be confused about. Yes, which takes us back to the previous question. > Global warming has been a fact of life throughout the history of our bit of > the universe (except of course during those periods of global cooling in the > run up to each of the ice ages!). We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the present rate? The changes in the past have taken thousands of years, other than after specific events. Greg.P. > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The changes in the past have taken thousands of years, other than after > specific events. Someones just found evidence that climate has changed rapidly in the past too - I think it was ice cores from the Arctic. Might have been the Antarctic. Or Greenland (which was, in Viking times, but now contains 8% of the worlds fresh water - which is a rapid change in my book). I can't find the article now (most likely on the BBC Science site), but it does indicate that the full story isn't yet known - which leaves me wondering just what assumptions are built into the model used. > Greg.P. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > it does indicate that the full story isn't yet known - which leaves > me wondering just what assumptions are built into the model used. "we don't know precisely so we aren't going to worry" doesn't cut it with me. If someone says to me "If you stand there you're going to get run over by a bus" I don't demand to know the colour of the bus nor it's precise timetable or a hundred other minor details before moving. >> > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! >> > > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > by a bus" I don't demand to know the colour of the bus nor it's precise > timetable or a hundred other minor details before moving. Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long way to go before being proven. This you can see by reviewing scientific literature by those few people that have some understanding of the subject. Similarly that it is significantly affected by human activities is a theory under discussion. So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested. As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain people have used to mess us about - councils and government persons especially. Most of their proposals will make effectively zero change to global warming whilst having much greater unintended consequences - ok maybe not with tax as it could be just another excuse to grab more for gordon. However emptying bins every 2 weeks instead of 1 will help the rats but but cause us health problems as well as increase fly tipping. It wont reduce waste and will increase CO2 as it means most householders have to go to the dump. So instead of one lorry we have a few hundred cars. Cheers, Simon > >> > > > You're confusing "Global warming" and higher temperatures! > >> > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Similarly that it is significantly affected by human activities is a theory > under discussion. Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid by the US government to pick holes in the theories. Every scenario is a therory until it actually happens. > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested. > As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > waste and will increase CO2 as it means most householders have to go to the > dump. So instead of one lorry we have a few hundred cars. Meanswhile, Pacific atolls are disappearing under water and their inhabitants are forced to move here. The weather patterns are changing drastically (Australia - 5 years drought, NZ - weather going to extremes etc etc) Scientific indications are that the changes may well snowball, ice in the Arctic and Antarctic are rapidly diminishing ... > Cheers, > Simon > Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid > by the US government to pick holes in the theories. I thought the 5% of non-adherents were being actively discouraged by all governments, who seem hell-bent on using GW as an excuse for switching the balance of taxation further from the rich to the poor. I think we flatter ourselves that we're able to influence the nature to such an extent with our every-day activities, unless of course if you include cataclysmic events such as exploding nuclear devices and other major military activities. I wonder how much the invasion of Iraq and the UN's involvement in Afghanistan are affecting climate change - I suspect probably more than our governments would wish us to know. John. > > Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid > > by the US government to pick holes in the theories. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think we flatter ourselves that we're able to influence the nature to such > an extent with our every-day activities, We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable from ice cores. > unless of course if you include > cataclysmic events such as exploding nuclear devices and other major > military activities. I wonder how much the invasion of Iraq and the UN's > involvement in Afghanistan are affecting climate change - I suspect probably > more than our governments would wish us to know. I hadn't particularly considered that - it certainly has an effect locally. > John. In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: }We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster }than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable from }ice cores. Methane is a considerably more important than CO2, just because they cannot measure it or in otherwise screw up does not fact make. 26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting. {R} > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting. That would leave 74% from manufacturing, transport, lighting, heating ... Here in NZ we have a high proportion of farting cows, but on the plus side the cows are producing either dairy or meat products which get eaten by the consumers of the other 74%. - if we cut cow fart polution you don't eat. - If you turn off the lights you don't need, travel by more efficient means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't have to suffer the problems caused by your polution. > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't > have to suffer the problems caused by your polution. That sounds suspiciously like the "let's blame the Chinese and Indians" argument - i.e. we don't pollute, we don't have the factories etc, yet demand the demand the cheapest possible goods from somewhere else. The Swiss are just as guilty of causing global pollution as the Chinese despite not being into heavy industry, since they buy goods from China. If I offered an range of "environmently sound" parts at twice the price no one would buy them, even the do-gooders. *Everyone*, whether they care to admit it or not, does "do as I say, not as I do". Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter > > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > *Everyone*, whether they care to admit it or not, does "do as I say, > not as I do". Here in NZ we're being blamed for cows farting - our cows mostly fart for export markets, just as China's factories belch polution for Britain, Europe, the US etc. > > > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter > > > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > for export markets, just as China's factories belch polution for > Britain, Europe, the US etc. No one in the real world blames you (NZ, not you personaly... I hope), it's just the "Don't I sound clever saying this" brigade making fools of themselves - typically 2.2 kids (or potential for) and 2 "prestiege" cars, commute miles to work, work in an air conditioned office with trendy utterly inneficient lighting, fly to Barcelona for the weekend because it's "cool", use bottled water, buy organic food flown in from Africa etc etc, but consider themseleves "environmental" because they own a bycicle and once had a Greenpeace poster on their wall at University. Probably a tad harsh, be we used to get them (I've not been to the pub since the ban, so I suppose they are still about) in the village completely misleading their kids as to how the cuntryside works. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > > > > > In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter > > > > > <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > village completely misleading their kids as to how the cuntryside > works. We have government departments and private research institutes busy figuring out how to stop cows farting!!! We're panicking about the possibility of the "food-miles" concept taking hold in Europe. Our economy is based on primary produce - we can produce and deliver to markets around the world cheaper than they/you can produce at your own front doors and we can keep doing that even if fuel rises to ten times it's present cost (with the odd casualty like say strawberries ...) Your "Don't I sound clever saying this" brigade could destroy our economy overnight if their illfounded concepts were accepted by the majority or EU officials decided to introduce some distance limit on produce. OTOH a terrorist bomb in (say) Blackpool or Spain could overload our tourist facilities again. Greg.P. NZ In uk.rec.models.rail on Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:23:06 +1200, Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: }{R} wrote: }> }> In uk.rec.models.rail on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:29:33 +1200, Greg Procter }> <procter@ihug.co.nz> wrote: }> }> }We're certainly pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster }> }than the earth can absorb it - that's scientific fact measureable from }> }ice cores. }> }> Methane is a considerably more important than CO2, just because they cannot }> measure it or in otherwise screw up does not fact make. }> }> 26% of global greenhouse gasses are caused by cows farting. } }That would leave 74% from manufacturing, transport, lighting, heating Possibly but trees and green stuff needs to take up carbon dioxide and emits oxygen. People convert Oxygen to CO2 }Here in NZ we have a high proportion of farting cows, but on the plus }side the cows are producing either dairy or meat products which get }eaten by the consumers of the other 74%. }- if we cut cow fart polution you don't eat. }- If you turn off the lights you don't need, travel by more efficient }means (and/or reduce travel) and reduce "throw-away" production we won't }have to suffer the problems caused by your polution. Don't worry you are doing your share, we have just been doing it longer :) How little is to do with manufacturing etc is still up for debate :) {R} >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long >> way [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Very true, but the current score is 95% consider it likely, 5% are paid > by the US government to pick holes in the theories. not seen those figures before nor how they were derived so cannot comment. > Every scenario is a therory until it actually happens. but very few do happen. > Meanswhile, Pacific atolls are disappearing under water and their > inhabitants are forced to move here. The weather patterns are changing > drastically (Australia - 5 years drought, NZ - weather going to extremes > etc etc) Scientific indications are that the changes may well snowball, > ice in the Arctic and Antarctic are rapidly diminishing ... Like I said its a theory thats under discussion and a long way from proven. So you mentioning a few situations means absolutly nothing. Cheers, Simon > >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long > >> way [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > but very few do happen. How many do you need to happen? >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long >> >> way [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > How many do you need to happen? Well for that sstatement to be useful i would say all of them. Cheers, Simon > >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a long > >> >> way [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Well for that sstatement to be useful i would say all of them. Err, for predictions of total human disaster, one would seem to be sufficient. >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a >> >> >> long [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Err, for predictions of total human disaster, one would seem to be > sufficient. So if there are a million scenarios and one of them happened then the others will follow as sure as ... Nope, dont think so. > >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has a > >> >> >> long [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > will follow as sure as ... > Nope, dont think so. Ok, stand in the bus lane and keep telling me you haven't been run over! ;-) The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is occuring and that human actions are causing that effect. 5% disagree and claim natural causes. 0.1% claim global warming isn't happening. I'm confident that the changes won't be too drastic in my lifetime (the loss of a few million Brits and yanks is neither here nor there) but in 100 years my grandchildren and their children are almost certainly going to be in trouble from our generation's actions. Greg.P. >> >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has >> >> >> >> a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Ok, stand in the bus lane and keep telling me you haven't been run over! > ;-) But by that reasoning then its not safe to go out cos someone has been run over a bus, eaton by a lion, shot, met gordon Brown, hit by lightning etc and lots of etcs. > The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is > occuring and that human actions are causing that effect. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Greg.P. But 99.99999% of scientists dont know enough about the subject. More important than numbers are the quality of the arguments put forward. Of course everyone only really listents to the bit they want to hear so are very unlikely to be converted to the other side ! Cheers, Simon > >> >> >> >> Global warming is a theory thats still under discussion and has > >> >> >> >> a [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > over a bus, eaton by a lion, shot, met gordon Brown, hit by lightning etc > and lots of etcs. I agree, it's not safe! OTOH we take many of the necessary precautions, such as not standing in the bus lane with our backs to the traffic flow. > > The point is that 95% of scientists agree that global warming is > > occuring and that human actions are causing that effect. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > course everyone only really listents to the bit they want to hear so are > very unlikely to be converted to the other side ! I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even though there's no bus timetabled until the morning. Regards, Greg.P. > I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid > standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even > though there's no bus timetabled until the morning. > > Regards, > Greg.P. Cant see any basis for comparison between chance of a bus and global warming. Are you thinking that GW will not appear when you expect it then several will appear at once ? Cheers, Simon > > I can see that happening right now. ;-) I still think I'll avoid > > standing in the bus lane with my back to the oncoming traffic flow even [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Cant see any basis for comparison between chance of a bus and global > warming. Both are rumoured to be coming any minute now. Both will run you down if you don't pay heed to their approach. :-) > Are you thinking that GW will not appear when you expect it then > several will appear at once ? Absolutely! Regards, Greg.P. > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested. > As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain > people have used to mess us about - councils and government persons > especially. Most of their proposals will make effectively zero change to > global warming whilst having much greater unintended consequences Didn't our former Prime Minister recently sign up to an accord wherein we all have to cut our personal carbon footprint by something approaching 65%? I read that to achieve that we'd all have to give up our cars, stop heating &/or air-conditioning our homes and effectively stop using any domestic applicances such as freezers, televisions and the like, plus quit taking flights for package holidays etc., etc... We've SIGNED UP FOR THIS which means , being Englishmen, we'll actually go for it - or be very heavily taxed!!! Now the cynic in me (I prefer to think I'm a realist) just accepts this is what Global Warming is all about - MORE TAXATION - but scare the population stupid in the meantime so they come to accept that this increased taxation is necessary! John. >> So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested. >> As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > domestic applicances such as freezers, televisions and the like, plus quit > taking flights for package holidays etc., etc... The Prime Minister's advisor on this subject - the one who called Ryanair "Public Enemy Number One" - commutes between Birningham and Aberdeen every day by private jet! He declined to be interviewed on the subject. (kim) > > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is suggested. > > As John and Richard have said in this country its a bandwagon that certain [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > stupid in the meantime so they come to accept that this increased taxation > is necessary! I've yet to meed anyone who accepts that taxation will help people worry about the environment (most will indeed worry, but not about the environment), and those who I heard on radio/tv/in the papers supporting it are noticabely from London and seem to think that public transport up to London standards is available throughout he entire country, even in the middle of the Peak Park or Yorkshire Dales etc. Our nice new Glorious Leader spouts the same inconsistent tosh - on his first day in office he says he's determined to get people out of their cars, yet is allowing sub-post offices to close forcing people to use their cars more. Until the Government/environmetal lobby get real, they are likely to have the opposite effect by setting themselves up for ridicule. > John. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb >> > So lets do something just in case is fine depending on what is >> > suggested. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > people out of their cars, yet is allowing sub-post offices to close > forcing people to use their cars more. Gordon is not merely "allowing" sub post offices, he is _forcing_ them to close. There's a difference. Main post offices and sorting offices are also now being closed. The rump of the business which survives will be sold to Rupert Murdoch and renamed "Royal TNT Mail". The latter will stop paying regular wages and force postmen to rely on commission based on the amount of junk mail they force through people's letterboxes. (kim) > We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the > present rate? I've no idea Greg, because despite rumours to the contrary I've not been around for the last few million years. Who's to say that there haven't been similar temperature blips in the past? John. > > We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at the > > present rate? > > I've no idea Greg, because despite rumours to the contrary I've not been > around for the last few million years. I stand corrected. ;-) > Who's to say that there haven't been > similar temperature blips in the past? There have, but they've been caused by specific events such as asteroid strikes and volcanic activity. >> > We all know that, but when has the Earth's temperature ever risen at >> > the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > There have, but they've been caused by specific events such as asteroid > strikes and volcanic activity. You forgot to add, we think on the end of that statement. Geologically a rapid change in temp is measured in thousands of years. >>> > We |
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