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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2007Hornby (ex-Lima) Class 66?
Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann version is available? (kim) > Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann > version is available? Because it's "Hornby".  SignatureMartin S. >> Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann >> version is available? > > Because it's "Hornby". That would have been my first thought but some of the people who are buying it are posters to MREx Mag and reasonably knowledgeable so must be aware of its drawbacks compared to the Bachmann release. It simply beggars belief. (kim) > >> Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann > >> version is available? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it are posters to MREx Mag and reasonably knowledgeable so must be aware of > its drawbacks compared to the Bachmann release. It simply beggars belief. Perhaps the Hornby one is less detailed/more robust, it might be easier to get spares and it might be better round tight settrack curves? I often buy older models for these reasons, rather than the latest super detailed versions. If you want to customise a model, it's also less traumatising and easier to work on an older less detailed model too :) >> >> Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann >> >> version is available? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > detailed versions. If you want to customise a model, it's also less > traumatising and easier to work on an older less detailed model too :) Yes but then why buy a completely new one when there are plenty of old, cheaper examples knocking around? (kim) > Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann version > is available? > > (kim) Price? Greg.P. >Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann version >is available? Three reasons, probably: 1. It's Hornby. Some people probably don't even know there's an alternative. 2. It's cheaper. Some people care about price more than they care about quality. In fact, if it's being bought for "train set" use, then the cheaper but inferior product is probably a better choice as it's less of an issue if it gets slightly damaged. 3. The Hornby and Bachmann versions have different liveries. If you want a particular livery, you have to buy the brand that offers it. Mark Signaturehttp://www.BritishSurnames.co.uk - What does your surname say about you? "Here we are now, entertain us" Mark Goodge said the following on 19/07/2007 07:53: > 3. The Hornby and Bachmann versions have different liveries. If you > want a particular livery, you have to buy the brand that offers it. Or re-livery it yourself? SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ >Mark Goodge said the following on 19/07/2007 07:53: > >> 3. The Hornby and Bachmann versions have different liveries. If you >> want a particular livery, you have to buy the brand that offers it. > >Or re-livery it yourself? Well, yes. But most buyers won't do that. Mark SignatureBlog: http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk "I feel dangerous 'cos I hunger for the truth" > Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann version > is available? > > (kim) The same reason they buy the Class 37, 47, Hymek, Mk 1 carriages etc. Fred X >> Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann >> version [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The same reason they buy the Class 37, 47, Hymek, Mk 1 carriages etc. In the case of the Mk1 and Class 66, once a typical dealer's discount is taken into consideration, it's not much cheaper than the Bachmann alternative. (kim) >>> Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann >>> version [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > taken into consideration, it's not much cheaper than the Bachmann > alternative. I know. Hattons sell Hornby Hymeks for £49 and Heljan ones for £52, but some people must be buying the Hornby version! Fred X > I know. Hattons sell Hornby Hymeks for £49 and Heljan ones for £52, but > some people must be buying the Hornby version! I can't think why, even though the Heljan loco will probably draw too much current for the average Hornby trainset controller. Some people are just too easily satisfied. John. >> I know. Hattons sell Hornby Hymeks for £49 and Heljan ones for £52, >> but some people must be buying the Hornby version! > > I can't think why, even though the Heljan loco will probably draw too > much current for the average Hornby trainset controller. Some people > are just too easily satisfied. There's no accounting for taste, or lack thereof. SignatureMartin S. In the August / September issue of 'Hornby Magazine' their editor, Mike Wild, has for his editorial an article called "The price is right'. Within his article he basically says 'you get what you pay for' and for the most part I agree with the points raised but I would also add 'you pay for what you need / want'. How many children can afford to buy, for example, a weathered Bachmann 9F @ ?125 with just their pocket money ? We apparently do better than our European counterparts a Mike quotes prices of ?280 for a German Railways '050' 2-10-0 from Fleisechmann or ?210 for a Chinese Railways 'QJ' 2-10-2 ! Many of you will got even give Hornby's new 'Railroad' range a second ( or even a first ) glance but I think they are just what the 'hobby' needs. To many ( or I should say majority ) its not a hobby but a child's plaything and has to compete with the latest PC or Playstation game. The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and build them at a greatly reduced price. I say bring back 'pocket money' model railroading, without it the 'hobby' will literally die ! Chris > In the August / September issue of 'Hornby Magazine' their editor, > Mike Wild, has for his editorial an article called "The price is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Chris Agreed. SignatureWolf 'Just because it's true doesn't mean it's the right answer.' > > In the August / September issue of 'Hornby Magazine' their editor, > > Mike Wild, has for his editorial an article called "The price is [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Agreed. Seconded - each unto their own and all that. It the fact that they are buying at all that really matters. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to > do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and > build them at a greatly reduced price. > > Chris Well, the thing is, as has already been pointed out, some of the Limby products are not significantly cheaper than the much better quality Bachmann alternatives. I agree if Hornby can get an old style Flying Scotsman on the dealer's shelves for 40 odd quid then your point is valid, but not for the likes of the Class 66. P.S. I quite liked my wife's old Skoda Estelle, far nicer than the Metro it replaced, apart from it's habit of lift off oversteer anyway. >> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > P.S. I quite liked my wife's old Skoda Estelle, far nicer than the > Metro it replaced, apart from it's habit of lift off oversteer anyway. My problem with this is simple, to get Bachman means central london or online purchasing, but Uxbridge has 2 places you can buy Hornby off the shelf (admittedly limited ranges, but nevertheless they are sold). >>> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >>> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >online purchasing, but Uxbridge has 2 places you can buy Hornby off the >shelf (admittedly limited ranges, but nevertheless they are sold). The two model railway shops nearest to me (Just Trains and Kent Garden Railways) both sell Bachmann, as does Modelzone in the Glades in Bromley. SignatureJane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html In the August / September issue of 'Hornby Magazine' their editor, Mike Wild, has for his editorial an article called "The price is right'. Within his article he basically says 'you get what you pay for' and for the most part I agree with the points raised but I would also add 'you pay for what you need / want'. How many children can afford to buy, for example, a weathered Bachmann 9F @ £125 with just their pocket money ? We apparently do better than our European counterparts a Mike quotes prices of £280 for a German Railways '050' 2-10-0 from Fleisechmann or £210 for a Chinese Railways 'QJ' 2-10-2 ! Many of you will got even give Hornby's new 'Railroad' range a second ( or even a first ) glance but I think they are just what the 'hobby' needs. To many ( or I should say majority ) its not a hobby but a child's plaything and has to compete with the latest PC or Playstation game. The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and build them at a greatly reduced price. I say bring back 'pocket money' model railroading, without it the 'hobby' will literally die ! Chris Not true, those same children who cannot afford the bachman 9f re likely to have a £400 ps3 and several £40 - £50 games to play on it with more to come. The problem with Railways in my humble opinion is not the price or the detail but the space it needs, especially in these days of Barrett shoeboxes. > How many children can afford to buy, for example, a weathered > Bachmann 9F @ £125 with just their pocket money ? Yes, but you can also ask the question 'how many can afford one of the new Hornby A4s', but that doesn't address the very similar price of the Heljan & Hornby class 35s - in the first case a well-engineered model and in the second a toy using 30 year old mouldings and drive technology. I can appreciate there will be a market for pocket-money toys, but that suggests to me they should be aimed at those with pocket-money rather than being pitched at a similar level to much higher quality items. > The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to > do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and > build them at a greatly reduced price. But at least Skoda's quality was good. John. >> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John. *Is* good, I have a Skoda and I'm very happy with it, even though it's basically a VW underneath now rather than a Fiat. Ian J. >>> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >>> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ian J. *Correction* not a Fiat! I was just thinking about that and I was pretty sure the old Skodas weren't Fiat derived, in fact weren't derived from any other manufacturer's designs.. However I could be wrong as they might have used some parts during the last years pre-VW (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Auto, which may or may not be accurate). :$ Ian J. > >>> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to > >>> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > used some parts during the last years pre-VW (seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Auto, which may or may not be > accurate). :$ NO I was defiantly NOT thinking of Lada's or Polski-FIAT / PZL or Zastava / Yugo but something like the Skoda S100L or S110L http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/4536/110lk97.jpg The Skoda models were, following the 2nd World War, soon falling way behind in terms of style / engineering to it's other European counterparts. Their solution was to 'borrow' old designs from the 1960's similar to the Fiat 1100 / 103 http://www.topolinoclubmilano.com/immagini/giovanni.jpg My first car was a 'L' reg. S100L. Ran through two bad winters despite a doggy distributor which could only be set within about +/- 10 degrees, could get up hills in the snow no other car at work could, cost me ?17.50 for a new exhaust and two rear tyres. Bought it for ?250 and sold it for ?230 after almost 30 months of motoring. The main point is despite it's lower engineering and 'unique' style it got me too and from work when my pride and joy motorbike was not safe / comfortable to ride due to the ice & snow or rain. OK some model loco's or rolling stock are not perfect but to many of us, including my son, as long as it works he's happy. If everyone wanted 'perfect models' we would all be paying ?400 to ?1500 or more per loco. We all buy what we can afford, I would have loved a Ford Escort Mexico as my first car but the Scoda was a better buy. Chris >> >>> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >> >>> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Zastava / Yugo but something like the Skoda S100L or S110L >http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/factory/4536/110lk97.jpg Which had no design relationship to any FIAT. The engine's in the opposite end, for one thing. There /is/ a vague design relationship between the 100/110 Skodas and the Renault 4CV->Renault 8->Renault 10 line, and IIRC there was some technology transfer there. OTOH, the Renault 4CV's design ancestry ran back via Volkswagen to the Tatra T97, so there's a Czech connection there. >The Skoda models were, following the 2nd World War, soon falling >way behind in terms of style / engineering to it's other European >counterparts. Their solution was to 'borrow' old designs from the >1960's similar to the Fiat 1100 / 103 >http://www.topolinoclubmilano.com/immagini/giovanni.jpg The Millicento was a conventional front engine/rear drive design with a beam back axle. The Skoda was rear engine/rear drive with swing axle back suspension. The engines were unrelated. The designs were unrelated. =There was no FIAT input into the rear engined Skodas. Renault, perhaps; FIAT no. >If everyone wanted 'perfect models' we would all be paying £400 to >£1500 or more per loco. We all buy what we can afford, I would have >loved a Ford Escort Mexico as my first car but the Scoda was a better >buy. OT, I know.. SignatureAndy Breen, not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales "The internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact with things that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with dental floss.." (Charlie Stross) One thing we all appear to have overlooked on the original subject is 'Brand Loyalty' ? Chris > One thing we all appear to have overlooked on the original subject is > 'Brand Loyalty' ? Brand loyalty is fine, providing it is justified, but when there's a similarly priced alternative which offers better quality then I believe in those circumstances that brand loyalty is akin to blindness. John. John > >> The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to > >> do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > *Is* good, I have a Skoda and I'm very happy with it, even though it's > basically a VW underneath now rather than a Fiat. Not basically VW - they *are* VW. Skoda is the sensible persons way of buying a VW and saving a packet! > Ian J. Richard (worked for a VAG company for a while) Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb >The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and >build them at a greatly reduced price. OT, and a nitpick, but no Skoda was FIAT-derived. The rear-engined cars had a fairly distant design relationship to the Renault 4CV, but as that was itself derived from Tatra designs I think it's fair to regard rear-engined Skodas as of Czech design. SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) >>The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >>do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was itself derived from Tatra designs I think it's fair to regard > rear-engined Skodas as of Czech design. The original poster is probably thinking of Lada? (kim) >>>The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >>>do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The original poster is probably thinking of Lada? Or Polski-FIAT/PZL, or Zastava/Yugo.. Unfortunately, none of these were actually up to the quality of the originals. A lot of FIAT's clever engineering (and it was clevr) got left out to make a simpler, more rugged product. And this is where the parallel breaks down completely, as I doubt if anyone would describe the engineering of the old Lima range as class-leading... SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) >>>>The Hornby / Lima models are nothing more than what Skoda used to >>>>do ... take second hand body designs from manufacturers like Fiat and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > originals. A lot of FIAT's clever engineering (and it was clever) got left > out to make a simpler, more rugged product. You mean like the sealed radiator on the FIAT which had to be cut open with a torch and welded shut again afterwards? :o) (kim) > Why the hell are people buying this when the far superior Bachmann version > is available? Perhaps because they are *Collectors* and we know they buy anything. especially if it is a poorer model, that is going to sell less well and is therefore rarer and maybe eventually worth more. Who cares anyway, it is their choice & money. You buy the one that suits your needs the most. Kevin Martin SignatureTo Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form |
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