Tight Spots
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Ian J. - 17 Aug 2007 23:40 GMT Hi all,
Have just got a Hornby A4, 'Mallard' (R2339) for my birthday, and it seems to have a couple of tight spots in each revolution of the wheels. Can anyone advise if these will disappear with running in, or should I send the model back for replacement?
I have to say I have experienced this kind of problem on other models that I've had (Hornby 'Weymouth' and a Bachmann 45xx), but not anything like as badly as on this model.
Ian J.
John Turner - 17 Aug 2007 23:47 GMT > Have just got a Hornby A4, 'Mallard' (R2339) for my birthday, and it seems > to have a couple of tight spots in each revolution of the wheels. Can > anyone advise if these will disappear with running in, or should I send > the model back for replacement? It's unlikely to improve with running, and is indicative of one (or more wheelsets) which are slightly out of quarter.
This should have been picked up by the retailer who sold you the model - assuming of course they tested the loco at the point of sale.
John.
Ian J. - 18 Aug 2007 01:20 GMT >> Have just got a Hornby A4, 'Mallard' (R2339) for my birthday, and it >> seems to have a couple of tight spots in each revolution of the wheels. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John. I gather it wasn't test run, so I'm going to have to take it back I think.
Ian J.
Jane Sullivan - 18 Aug 2007 07:18 GMT >> Have just got a Hornby A4, 'Mallard' (R2339) for my birthday, and it seems >> to have a couple of tight spots in each revolution of the wheels. Can [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >John. Shouldn't Hornby themselves have picked it up when they test-ran the loco?
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 08:27 GMT > Shouldn't Hornby themselves have picked it up when they test-ran the loco? You've not been paying attention Jane - see discussion elsewhere regarding manufacturers' quality control! ;-)
And the end of the day the normal end-user's contract is with the retailer, and consequently it is their responsibility to make sure the item is of saleable quality. Sadly Hornby are making point of sale testing increasingly difficult - note the securing lugs screwed to the underside of the King Arthur locos. The alone would add a minimum of five minutes to any testing regime.
John.
Jane Sullivan - 18 Aug 2007 11:52 GMT >> Shouldn't Hornby themselves have picked it up when they test-ran the loco? > >You've not been paying attention Jane - see discussion elsewhere regarding >manufacturers' quality control! ;-) Oh yes I have. Why do I have to use smileys to indicate irony or sarcasm in my mailings? Surely you guys would know that I must have been paying attention, or I wouldn't have mentioned their testing of the loco, after reading that they test-run _every_ loco before sending them out for sale.
Somebody on a group that I'm a member of adds "may contain traces of irony" to his sig. Maybe I should add "If you can't detect irony in this message you haven't looked hard enough" to mine.
>And the end of the day the normal end-user's contract is with the retailer, >and consequently it is their responsibility to make sure the item is of >saleable quality. Sadly Hornby are making point of sale testing >increasingly difficult - note the securing lugs screwed to the underside of >the King Arthur locos. The alone would add a minimum of five minutes to any >testing regime. That's nothing compared with what Walthers have done with their Proto 2000 F7 locos. They are almost jammed into the packaging with some plastic girders which are screwed into the coupler-fixing holes, and which keep the loco's wheels off the track unless you remove them first.
Mind you, they are wonderful locos, responding on speed step 1 (of 128) straight out of the box.
>John.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html If you can't detect irony in this message you haven't looked hard enough
Chris Wilson - 18 Aug 2007 12:10 GMT Jane Sullivan <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ijAUvK $r9sxGFA8W@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk:
> That's nothing compared with what Walthers have done with their Proto > 2000 F7 locos. They are almost jammed into the packaging with some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mind you, they are wonderful locos, responding on speed step 1 (of 128) > straight out of the box. Changing the subject slightly (well quite a lot really) I'm becoming more and more attracted to the idea of modelling US outline, mainly due to the quality of the available RTR stock (and of course HO is not just a guage but a scale representation).
 Signature All the best,
Chris Wilson
email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway
Wolf Kirchmeir - 18 Aug 2007 14:25 GMT [...]
> Changing the subject slightly (well quite a lot really) I'm becoming more > and more attracted to the idea of modelling US outline, mainly due to the > quality of the available RTR stock (and of course HO is not just a guage > but a scale representation). OooH, apostasy!!!!
--wolf [May contain traces of Fe-ry.]
kim - 18 Aug 2007 14:49 GMT > Jane Sullivan <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ijAUvK > $r9sxGFA8W@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > quality of the available RTR stock (and of course HO is not just a guage > but a scale representation). I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK?
(kim)
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 15:13 GMT > I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese > factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? Don't know about *all* of it, but Hornby is made in the same factory as Life-Like's Proto 2000 range. Bachmann, of course, have their own factory and I believe that all their model railway products (irrespective of the market) are made the one location.
John.
Jane Sullivan - 18 Aug 2007 16:00 GMT >> I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese >> factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John. I suppose I knew that, really, but the difference in quality between Proto 2000 (Life-Like was taken over by Walthers some time last year) and Hornby is astounding. I suppose you get what you pay for, because Proto 2000 is not cheap, especially when it's fitted with DCC and sound.
Damn wevva! I was just getting into my stride putting No. 36 (that's the consist number, you understand) through its paces (CV3 = 100, CV4 = 255, etc.) when it started raining!
I'm thinking of naming my F7s Anni-Frid, Benny, Björn and Agnetha.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 16:20 GMT > I'm thinking of naming my F7s Anni-Frid, Benny, Björn and Agnetha. You've got a four loco lash-up with two B-units in the middle then?
John.
Jane Sullivan - 18 Aug 2007 16:33 GMT >> I'm thinking of naming my F7s Anni-Frid, Benny, Björn and Agnetha. > >You've got a four loco lash-up with two B-units in the middle then? > >John. Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Greg Procter - 18 Aug 2007 22:15 GMT > >> I'm thinking of naming my F7s Anni-Frid, Benny, Björn and Agnetha. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. I was just reading a "Garden Railways" article on coupling LGB A-B pairs back to back. With off-set A unit reed switches for sounding the horns, whistles etc over track magnets, the author made a special wiring harness in one B unit so that the two B-unit sound units worked in concert. It's interesting seeing people solve problems I would never have known existed! =8^] I don't know what solution he would have come up with if he had more than two A-B units! I never realized Benny any Bjoern played on different teams! Mind you, I was always more interested in the A units.
Regards, Greg.P.
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 22:19 GMT > Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. Driving ends inner or outer?
John.
Kenny - 18 Aug 2007 22:32 GMT >> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. > >Driving ends inner or outer? B units don't have driving ends... ;-)
 Signature Kenny
Wolf Kirchmeir - 19 Aug 2007 00:41 GMT >>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >> >> Driving ends inner or outer? > > B units don't have driving ends... ;-) Yes, they do. There is a hostler's stand, so that the hostler can move the engine around the engine terminal for servicing. The road engineer (driver) does not do this.
Jane Sullivan - 19 Aug 2007 09:10 GMT >>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the engine around the engine terminal for servicing. The road engineer >(driver) does not do this. Yes, but the hostler sees where he's going by opening one of the portholes and looking out.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Wolf Kirchmeir - 19 Aug 2007 15:56 GMT >>>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, but the hostler sees where he's going by opening one of the > portholes and looking out. There's a hostler's window at that end of the B unit.
Jane Sullivan - 19 Aug 2007 17:15 GMT >>>>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >There's a hostler's window at that end of the B unit. No, there isn't.
There is a very small window in the end doors (into what we would call the gangway connection in the UK, and Model Railroader calls the diaphragm). The hostler's control stand is by the first porthole on the right hand side (engineer's side) of the B unit. If you are telling me that the hostler can see anything out of those windows considering the equipment that is in between, I shall say some very rude words to you! See Jeff Wilson, "F units, the diesels that did it" (Kalmbach, 2000) p.19, which shows a diagram of a F3B.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_unit <quote> Some B units cannot be moved without a controlling unit attached, but most have some simple controls inside, and often a side window at that control station. For example, B unit versions of the EMD FT with conventional couplers had a fifth porthole-style window added on the right side only for the control station. Other models used existing windows. These controls enable a hostler to move the B-unit locomotive by itself in a yard or shops. </quote>
I've seen a picture of a B unit moving on its own in a yard, with a hostler leaning out of one of the portholes. I can't find the picture at the moment, which makes me think it is in a back issue of Model Railroader, as the answer to a "how did they move B units around yards" type question.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Wolf Kirchmeir - 20 Aug 2007 01:05 GMT >>>>>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > See Jeff Wilson, "F units, the diesels that did it" (Kalmbach, 2000) > p.19, which shows a diagram of a F3B. Granted, many B units had no hostler's stand.
But since you want to quibble:
"Right hand side" implies a front and a back end, as the right hand side is the one your right when you are looking out or towards the front end. So there is a "driving end" on (some) B units.
And to confuse the issue even more, some B units had an F painte on the frame at one end to denote it as the Front end. Dunno whether tha influenced the placement of the hostler's stand.
There were also GPs built as B units....
HAH!
Er, I meant, HTH. ;-)
Jane Sullivan - 20 Aug 2007 21:21 GMT >>>>>>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Granted, many B units had no hostler's stand. They were the ones that were permanently coupled to the A unit by means of a drawbar. When they were converted to using normal couplers, hostlers' stands were added.
>But since you want to quibble: > >"Right hand side" implies a front and a back end, as the right hand >side is the one your right when you are looking out or towards the >front end. So there is a "driving end" on (some) B units. Don't forget that A and B units were similar, except for B units not having a cab, so the front of a B unit (where the F was painted) was the same end as the front of an A unit (where, unsurprisingly, the F was painted). Apart from hostling them around the yard, B units were never driven by themselves, and as it didn't matter which way round they were marshalled in a consist the concept of "driving end" for a B unit is meaningless.
>And to confuse the issue even more, some B units had an F painte on the >frame at one end to denote it as the Front end. I understand that that was mandatory under federal regulations. Something to do with hood units, where some railroads designated the long hood as the front, whereas others designated the short hood as the front.
> Dunno whether tha influenced the placement of the hostler's stand. I doubt it.
>There were also GPs built as B units.... True.
>HAH! > >Er, I meant, HTH. ;-) Well it certainly helps raise the confusion level.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Kenny - 20 Aug 2007 12:43 GMT >>>> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the engine around the engine terminal for servicing. The road engineer >(driver) does not do this. Oops, I sit corrected! :-) I was, of course, referring to a "proper" driving cab... ;-)
 Signature Kenny
Jane Sullivan - 19 Aug 2007 09:08 GMT >> Correct. And the B units face in opposite directions. > >Driving ends inner or outer? > >John. Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
John Turner - 19 Aug 2007 18:08 GMT > Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. Oh yes there is, as others have already commented!
John.
Jane Sullivan - 19 Aug 2007 18:38 GMT >> Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. > >Oh yes there is, as others have already commented! Oh no there ain't. There's a front end, and by implication a back end, and there's a hostler's stand where the unit can be driven from, but that ain't at one end or the other, so there ain't no driving end on a B unit.
>John.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Greg Procter - 19 Aug 2007 20:56 GMT > >> Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that ain't at one end or the other, so there ain't no driving end on a B > unit. How can a driving position _not_ be at one end or the other? Is it in the middle or in a variable random spot???
Greg.P.
Jane Sullivan - 19 Aug 2007 22:03 GMT >> >> Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >How can a driving position _not_ be at one end or the other? >Is it in the middle or in a variable random spot??? The hostler's stand is at a fixed position about a third of the way along the right-hand side of the B-unit. This stand only allows driving at slow speeds around the yard.
For normal main-line use, the driving position of the B unit is in the front of the A unit, via multiple-unit controls.
>Greg.P.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Greg Procter - 19 Aug 2007 23:41 GMT > >> >> Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > along the right-hand side of the B-unit. This stand only allows driving > at slow speeds around the yard. Wow, that's not going to allow much of a view - makes me think of the sort of driving one encounters in supermarket car parks.
> For normal main-line use, the driving position of the B unit is in the > front of the A unit, via multiple-unit controls. Yeah yeah, I know all that. ;-)
> >Greg.P. > > -- > Jane > British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden > http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html Jane Sullivan - 20 Aug 2007 21:08 GMT >> >> >> Eh? There ain't no drivin' ends on a B unit. >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Wow, that's not going to allow much of a view - makes me think of the >sort of driving one encounters in supermarket car parks. You don't need much of a view. You have other people on the ground instructing you when to stop and start, so you only need to be able to see them.
>> For normal main-line use, the driving position of the B unit is in the >> front of the A unit, via multiple-unit controls. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden >> http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
MartinS - 27 Aug 2007 01:50 GMT > Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes >>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>Yeah yeah, I know all that. >>;-) I've seen a CN switcher being driven by an operator standing on the front using a radio remote control. Can't they do this for B units?
And I've seen VIA passenger trains run backwards with a trainman in the rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in contact with the loco driver by radio.
 Signature Martin S.
Greg Procter - 27 Aug 2007 04:49 GMT > > Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes > >>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I've seen a CN switcher being driven by an operator standing on the > front using a radio remote control. Can't they do this for B units? Sure, you could fit radio control gear to any existing loco, but it's going to cost $$$ to fit the gear.
> And I've seen VIA passenger trains run backwards with a trainman in the > rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in > contact with the loco driver by radio. > > -- > Martin S. beamendsltd - 28 Aug 2007 18:09 GMT > > I've seen a CN switcher being driven by an operator standing on the > > front using a radio remote control. Can't they do this for B units? > > Sure, you could fit radio control gear to any existing loco, but it's > going to cost $$$ to fit the gear. Or you could just use hand signals - we used to quite happily move anything from an engine to a 2000 ton train that way in the yards, and when propelling engineers trains into the section.
Richard
> > And I've seen VIA passenger trains run backwards with a trainman in the > > rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in > > contact with the loco driver by radio. > > > > -- > > Martin S.
 Signature www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb
Greg Procter - 28 Aug 2007 21:04 GMT > > > I've seen a CN switcher being driven by an operator standing on the > > > front using a radio remote control. Can't they do this for B units? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > anything from an engine to a 2000 ton train that way in the yards, > and when propelling engineers trains into the section. Nahh, thats not hi-tech!
Greg.P.
Keith Willcocks - 27 Aug 2007 09:18 GMT >> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes >>>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in > contact with the loco driver by radio. Back in 1993 my wife and I sat in the rear of the bullet car, beside the trainman, on the VIA Number 1 "Canadian" as it reversed several miles out of Edmonton back onto the main line. He had a walkie talkie and was in continuous contact with the engineer who drove blind from half a mile or more up front. It was an experience I will never forget. It was all done with messages like "Engineer number 1, keep her coming" and "Engineer number 1, reduce speed, crossing coming up" etc.
 Signature Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)
Arthur Figgis - 28 Aug 2007 22:09 GMT >>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes >>>>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > with messages like "Engineer number 1, keep her coming" and "Engineer number > 1, reduce speed, crossing coming up" etc. ISTR that when I did the west-bound Canadian in 2004 it also went backwards somewhere near (well, at least by Canadian standards) Toronto.
 Signature Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
MartinS - 30 Aug 2007 01:44 GMT > "MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote... >>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > her coming" and "Engineer number 1, reduce speed, crossing coming up" > etc. VIA trains going into service from Toronto to points west are driven backwards from Mimico yards to Union Station. Presumably they are also driven backwards in the opposite direction after their return trip.
Once I saw a GO Train (1 loco and 10 bilevel cars) disabled at Danforth station. It was rescued by a VIA passenger train driven out from Union - actually it was two trains coupled together, which is often done with Montreal and Ottawa trains. The entire consist, including 3 locos and about 20 cars, was driven off in reverse towards downtown Toronto.
Last night I saw a Toronto-Ottawa train with three (count 'em) stainless-steel coaches and two (count' em) 3000 HP locomotives. Pretty good power-to-weight ratio there!
 Signature Martin S.
Jane Sullivan - 27 Aug 2007 09:43 GMT >> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes >>>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >I've seen a CN switcher being driven by an operator standing on the >front using a radio remote control. Can't they do this for B units? They can do anything they like by converting the locos to do what they want. See, for example, the Milwaukee Road's method of controlling diesel locos "in multiple" with and from the Little Joe electrics.
The timeframe of my model railway is the fifties and sixties and in those decades they didn't control B units that way. Why would they want to? On the road, they have a cab unit in front of them. In the loco yard they only need hostling at very slow speeds. Therefore there is no need to do it.
>And I've seen VIA passenger trains run backwards with a trainman in the >rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in >contact with the loco driver by radio. I would hope he has direct control. In emergency those few seconds can be vital.
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Wolf Kirchmeir - 27 Aug 2007 13:49 GMT [...]
>> And I've seen VIA passenger trains run backwards with a trainman in the >> rear vestibule; I don't know if he has direct control, or is just in >> contact with the loco driver by radio. > > I would hope he has direct control. In emergency those few seconds can > be vital. Backing movements with a trainman at the "front" end are quite common, but AFAIK they are done at low speed. (Keith, how fast was that VIA train backing out of Edmonton?) The exception is push-pull trains such as the GO trains in and around Toronto. They last car has a driving cab from which the engineer controls the (pushing) engine directly. The more common solution for such suburban trains is to have a power car at each end, though.
To add to Keith Willcocks story: In Calgary a couple of years ago I observed and photographed a flatcar coupled to the long hood end of switch engine (an SD-40!) with a trainman standing on it, walkie talkie in hand, as the engine backed up to the other end of the yard. Safety First, I guess.
Keith Willcocks - 28 Aug 2007 20:39 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > as the engine backed up to the other end of the yard. Safety First, I > guess. I would estimate speed at a max of 10 to 15 mph. I was sitting on the right, end, armchair in the bullet lounge and the trainman took the opposite seat that my wife had been sitting in (she then sat beside him). He opened a small locked compartment under the window that had very little in it but from which he took the radio. It might also have had some form of emergency brake in there. What with that and, later in the trip on board "The Rocky Mountaineer", going through the spiral tunnels after leaving Banff it was a holiday to remember train wise.
 Signature Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)
MartinS - 30 Aug 2007 01:51 GMT > Backing movements with a trainman at the "front" end are quite common, > but AFAIK they are done at low speed. (Keith, how fast was that VIA > train backing out of Edmonton?) Around 4 pm on a weekday, there are movements every few minutes between Mimico yards and Toronto Union, with both GO and VIA trains going into rush-hour service as well as in-service trains. I don't think any of them, including the (empty) backing VIA trains, travel at low speed, although there are 4 tracks.
 Signature Martin S.
Keith Willcocks - 28 Aug 2007 20:32 GMT >>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes >>>>> Greg Procter <procter@ihug.co.nz> writes [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I would hope he has direct control. In emergency those few seconds can be > vital. He hasn't, although there was a single lever that could have been an emergency brake.see my earlier post.
 Signature Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)
MartinS - 30 Aug 2007 01:54 GMT > "Jane Sullivan" <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote... >> MartinS <me@my.place> writes [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > He hasn't, although there was a single lever that could have been an > emergency brake.see my earlier post. I believe they also have a small warning whistle attached to the compressed air line.
 Signature Martin S.
kim - 18 Aug 2007 16:05 GMT >> I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese >> factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and I believe that all their model railway products (irrespective of the > market) are made the one location. Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the same standard? It's not as if the workers at Sanda Kan are going to deliberately loosen chimneys on models bound for the UK so they fall off or Kader deliberately fit the wrong chimney just to annoy UK customers.
(kim)
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 16:22 GMT > Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the > same standard? That's a big assumption - there must, for instance, be some motor car plants where cheap and luxury end of the market vehicles are made under the same roof.
John.
Tony - 18 Aug 2007 21:52 GMT I once worked in a factory that produced bolts / screws for the aircraft industry. They cost many times what the theoretically identical fastener made in the automotive branch of the same company did. This was due to the high level of quality control. Tony
>> Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the >> same standard? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John. Greg Procter - 18 Aug 2007 22:05 GMT > > Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the > > same standard? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John. The BMC/BLMC Mini and VW Polos were made at a loss or break-even selling price. (I'm not sure if that's relevant)
Greg.P.
Wolf Kirchmeir - 18 Aug 2007 20:46 GMT >>> I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese >>> factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the > same standard? Why would that be? The factory delivers the quality level the customer wants and is willing to pay for.
> It's not as if the workers at Sanda Kan are going to > deliberately loosen chimneys on models bound for the UK so they fall off or > Kader deliberately fit the wrong chimney just to annoy UK customers. > > (kim) It's not the workers' fault - it's a matter of the contract between Hornby and the factory. The factory produces models for Hornby under contract. If Hornby wants a lower price, then quality control will be, um, skimped. The amount of and quality of detail in the tooling may also vary, as will the amount of applied detail. I don't know whether Hornby shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new tooling, too. If the latter, then it's up to Hornby to make sure the correct chimneys are made and applied. Etc.
I'm really quite surprised that people think that quality is a worker problem. It's a management problem, and always has been. If management wants the workers to build a better car, for example, management will ensure that the parts are better and fit better, and that the line is set up to deliver a better product. That means both that the workers are trained to meet the expected standard, and that quality control is applied at every step of the process. But both worker training and quality control are expensive. Beyond a certain level, it's cheaper to replace defective product than to pay the cost of higher skills and quality at the factory.
That being said, high price is not a good guide to quality. As the experience of buyers of "luxury cars" attests, a car costing $75,000 is nowhere near 3 times as durable etc as a car costing $25,000. The function of the higher price is not to guarantee quality, but to prevent the unwashed from buying the thing - exclusivity matters more important than quality for people with an exaggerated sense of their own importance.
But I'm drifting OT, again. Sorry. ;-)
John Turner - 18 Aug 2007 22:22 GMT I don't know whether Hornby
> shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new tooling, > too. If the latter, then it's up to Hornby to make sure the correct > chimneys are made and applied. Etc. Bit of both really, the more detailed models are (in the main) totally new tooling, whereas the rest are old tooling shipped to China.
John.
Wilson.R.Adams - 18 Aug 2007 22:51 GMT > I don't know whether Hornby >> shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new tooling, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John. Then it's possible that the tooling for the Triang Blue Pullman is also in China ?.
Is there any truth in the rumour that the Airfix tooling that Hornby bought from Dapol, was used inplace of the Triang tooling to produce the current range of super detailed Class 31's ? See photo http://irishrailwayimages.fotopic.net/p44213010.html
Wilson
John Turner - 19 Aug 2007 18:10 GMT > Then it's possible that the tooling for the Triang Blue Pullman is also > in China ?. That *may* still be stuck in Margate, but in any event it was a pretty inaccurate model and although I suppose a few would sell if it were remanufactured, I suspect demand would be small.
A far better option would be to update the EM2 tooling with a decent motor drive.
> Is there any truth in the rumour that the Airfix tooling that Hornby > bought > from Dapol, was used inplace of the Triang tooling to produce the current > range of super detailed Class 31's ? > See photo http://irishrailwayimages.fotopic.net/p44213010.html Totally new tooling as far as I'm aware.
John.
Wilson.R.Adams - 19 Aug 2007 19:33 GMT >> Then it's possible that the tooling for the Triang Blue Pullman is also >> in China ?. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > John. A limited run of say 2,500 Blue Pullman models, on a first come first served basis. I think you'd find that these will sell out "VERY QUICKLY". I think the reason why Hornby won't release it is, It's a one off tooling, that can't be used to represent any other model, nor can the train be repainted into any other livery other than the liveries that the Blue Pullman operated under.
Yes, a EM2 would be interesting model to release. What about a Class 23 Baby Deltic instead ?
Wilson
Paul Boyd - 20 Aug 2007 08:33 GMT Wilson.R.Adams said the following on 19/08/2007 19:33:
> A limited run of say 2,500 Blue Pullman models, on a first come first > served basis. I think you'd find that these will sell out "VERY QUICKLY". I suspect that the Blue Pullman is one of those models that everyone wants, but no-one will buy. As John says, it was pretty inaccurate anyway. If the model suddenly became readily available (and 2500 is a high number, not limited) then I think the appeal would go. Who would spend, say, £175 on an inaccurate representation of a 6-car set from tooling that is 40-odd years old?
> I think the reason why Hornby won't release it is, It's a one off tooling, > that can't be used to represent any other model, nor can the train be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes, a EM2 would be interesting model to release. > What about a Class 23 Baby Deltic instead ? Talking of tooling that can't be used to represent any other model, nor can be repainted into any other livery other than the liveries that the prototype operated under.... :-)
 Signature Paul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
kim - 20 Aug 2007 13:45 GMT > Wilson.R.Adams said the following on 19/08/2007 19:33: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > spend, say, £175 on an inaccurate representation of a 6-car set from > tooling that is 40-odd years old? "Collectors" and "retro modellers".
(kim)
Paul Boyd - 20 Aug 2007 15:05 GMT kim said the following on 20/08/2007 13:45:
> "Collectors" and "retro modellers". But wouldn't they want the real 1960s thing? Otherwise it's just a reproduction they're buying.
 Signature Paul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
John Turner - 20 Aug 2007 17:32 GMT > But wouldn't they want the real 1960s thing? Otherwise it's just a > reproduction they're buying. Try buying one of the recent 'Lorna Doone' models from Hornby. These are simply a re-issue of the old 'Lord of the Isles' tooling with a very slightly uprated chassis - different motor and more pick-ups. I think there was only around 1,000 of these produced.
My guess is that 1,000 of the 'Blue Pullmans' might sell - I'd certainly risk an order for half-a-dozen of them, but I suspect demand is relatively small; indeed when I sold a boxed one on eBay a few months back it only made around £75, so whether the market would stand such a number priced probably around £150 is anyone's guess.
John.
Wilson.R.Adams - 20 Aug 2007 21:21 GMT >> But wouldn't they want the real 1960s thing? Otherwise it's just a >> reproduction they're buying. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > made around £75, so whether the market would stand such a number priced > probably around £150 is anyone's guess. I don't see why they shouldn't sell, There's plenty of collectors that would love to get their hands on one or two sets, plus quite a few modellers. £75 for a boxed set isn't a bad price to get. I've seen them go for a higher price than that. I bought the 1974 version unboxed for £50.
Wilson a few weeks ago.
Kevin Martin - 21 Aug 2007 15:57 GMT > My guess is that 1,000 of the 'Blue Pullmans' might sell - I'd certainly > risk an order for half-a-dozen of them, but I suspect demand is relatively > small; indeed when I sold a boxed one on eBay a few months back it only made > around £75, so whether the market would stand such a number priced probably > around £150 is anyone's guess. Isn't the problem with "centre cars", a lack of. From what I remember, I lot of Pullman sets were sold, but with very few centre cars to extend the train length. Even if the centre cars were not of the right types, some do just buy them anyway to make a set the right length. Just try any magazine photo of a "full length" train and you are likely to find it consists of Brake 3rd's & Compo's.
Kevin Martin
 Signature To Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form
Paul Boyd - 22 Aug 2007 08:17 GMT John Turner said the following on 20/08/2007 17:32:
> Try buying one of the recent 'Lorna Doone' models from Hornby. These are > simply a re-issue of the old 'Lord of the Isles' tooling with a very > slightly uprated chassis - different motor and more pick-ups. I think there > was only around 1,000 of these produced. Did that sell well, then? I wonder how many people bought it because it's a nice engine, and how many bought it with some thoughts of investment value :-) My original LOTI was bought with the intention of hacking it about into a better model, but then I bought the K's Milestones version instead as a better base for hackery.
> My guess is that 1,000 of the 'Blue Pullmans' might sell - I'd certainly > risk an order for half-a-dozen of them, but I suspect demand is relatively > small; indeed when I sold a boxed one on eBay a few months back it only made > around £75, so whether the market would stand such a number priced probably > around £150 is anyone's guess. eBay is strange with regard to Blue Pullmans - you have to get the timing just right, and of course you only know that if you're selling one! It's the centre coaches that tend to go for large sums, but for some reason including the centre coach as part of a three car set seems to devalue the centre coach sometimes!
I was at a model railway show not so many years ago browsing about the second-hand stalls, as you do, when I espied boxes of more stuff underneath, specifically the arse end of a Blue Pullman centre coach. I bought three of them at a tenner each, which completed the car count for a Western Pullman (even if the wrong consist). Eventually I saw the set for what it was - an old inaccurate model - and flogged the lot on eBay.
 Signature Paul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
Alan P Dawes - 22 Aug 2007 10:44 GMT > John Turner said the following on 20/08/2007 17:32:
> > Try buying one of the recent 'Lorna Doone' models from Hornby. These > > are simply a re-issue of the old 'Lord of the Isles' tooling with a > > very slightly uprated chassis - different motor and more pick-ups. I > > think there was only around 1,000 of these produced.
> Did that sell well, then? I wonder how many people bought it because > it's a nice engine, and how many bought it with some thoughts of > investment value I bought it for nostalgia. I would have loved to have had the original Lord of the Isles when it first came out but couldn't possibly have afforded it. Quite a few years later I got a rather battered one cheaply second hand but it never ran very well fitted with a zero one decoder and I never had the time to sort it out. Now I'm retired with some spare cash and time, I can indulge myself occasionally. Despite its solid hand rails and gap between the front bogies and the body, I get pleasure from looking at it with these ageing eyes. It's sitting in line with a number of other GWR engines waiting for me to get round to fitting DCC decoders.
Alan
 Signature alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC
kim - 22 Aug 2007 14:25 GMT > John Turner said the following on 20/08/2007 17:32: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > including the centre coach as part of a three car set seems to devalue the > centre coach sometimes! That's true when anything valuable is bundled for sale with something less valuable. I just warned a woman against doing precisely that with her father's collection.
(kim)
Chris Wilson - 23 Aug 2007 23:27 GMT > That's true when anything valuable is bundled for sale with something > less valuable. I just warned a woman against doing precisely that with > her father's collection. Don't suppose you have her telephone number? :-)
 Signature All the best,
Chris Wilson
email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway
kim - 23 Aug 2007 23:55 GMT >> That's true when anything valuable is bundled for sale with something >> less valuable. I just warned a woman against doing precisely that with >> her father's collection. > > Don't suppose you have her telephone number? :-) It was a woman in rec.models.scale She was asking the best way to dispose of her father's collection but what she really wanted was for the rest of us to take it off her hands at the highest possible prices.
(kim)
Greg Procter - 20 Aug 2007 20:59 GMT > Wilson.R.Adams said the following on 19/08/2007 19:33: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > spend, say, £175 on an inaccurate representation of a 6-car set from > tooling that is 40-odd years old? Marklin collectors do!
> > I think the reason why Hornby won't release it is, It's a one off tooling, > > that can't be used to represent any other model, nor can the train be [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Paul Boyd > http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ John Turner - 20 Aug 2007 23:34 GMT > Marklin collectors do! Maybe not in sufficient numbers - Marklin went into administration not so long ago and were bought out by a British merchant bank (venture capitalists?).
John.
kim - 20 Aug 2007 23:54 GMT >> Marklin collectors do! > > Maybe not in sufficient numbers - Marklin went into administration not so > long ago and were bought out by a British merchant bank (venture > capitalists?). "Private equity group".
They take an existing company which is losing money, delist it from the stock exchange, then claim the losses back from their tax liability.
(kim)
beamendsltd - 21 Aug 2007 09:01 GMT > >> Marklin collectors do! > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They take an existing company which is losing money, delist it from the > stock exchange, then claim the losses back from their tax liability. ..... then asset-strip it and sell the intellectual property when they have gained all they can.
> (kim) Richard
 Signature www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb
Greg Procter - 21 Aug 2007 00:00 GMT > > Marklin collectors do! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John. The problem with the "Collectors" market is that each purchase is an individual and isolated event. (as opposed to the "modeller" who tends to purchase to a specific theme) With the downturn in the German market/economy the collectors reduced their buying drastically. That of course was the market that Ma had directed their marketting/output towards in the last decade or so. We modellers still want the Bay G4/5 - LNER A1 - T7 - ... so a change in fortunes just slows our purchases. Hopefully the venture capitalists will figure the three different markets and pick the segments that will allow Trix and LGB to survive.
Greg.P.
Greg Procter - 19 Aug 2007 00:47 GMT > I don't know whether Hornby > > shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new tooling, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bit of both really, the more detailed models are (in the main) totally new > tooling, whereas the rest are old tooling shipped to China. The British factory tooling is unlikely to fit the Chinese moulding machines.
MartinS - 27 Aug 2007 01:40 GMT >> I don't know whether Hornby >> > shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The British factory tooling is unlikely to fit the Chinese moulding > machines. They will make it fit!
 Signature Martin S.
Greg Procter - 27 Aug 2007 04:48 GMT > >> I don't know whether Hornby > >> > shipped their tools to China, or whether they contracted for new [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > They will make it fit! The Tri-ang-Hornby moulds are almost certainly smaller the the Chinese moulding machine capability so I guess the TH moulds cound be fitted into Chinese moulds, but, it might be quicker and cheaper to make new accurate moulds.
Greg.P.
simon - 18 Aug 2007 23:22 GMT >>> I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese >>> factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > (kim) Worked in local biscuit factory as a student (many years ago). All the main supermarkets and the companies own brand were produced on the same line but the best ones were taken first for M&S, then the next best for etc etc.
Not quite the same for model factories, but they can put best workers on best models and the less competant and trainee workers on the lesser models. Can also use different quality raw materials.
Cheers, Simon
Paul Boyd - 20 Aug 2007 08:23 GMT kim said the following on 18/08/2007 16:07:
> Surely then if they're made in the same factory they must be made to the > same standard? I'm a manager of a small manufacturing facility, and although there are certain standards of quality below which we refuse to drop, a customer who pays for 100% inspection/test is guaranteed to have a higher pass rate (100%!) than one who only wants to pay for sample inspection and no test. Things do go wrong in any manufacturing process, and it's up to the end customer to decide how much risk he is prepared to take compared to the cost of reducing that risk.
 Signature Paul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
Greg Procter - 18 Aug 2007 22:03 GMT > > I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese > > factories as the RTR stock sold in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and I believe that all their model railway products (irrespective of the > market) are made the one location. I read somewhere (Model Railroader I think) that Bachmann have seven factories, one of which is specifically dedicated to model train production. Of course some of their trains are toys and come from a seperate factory even though there are common parts/mechanisms/tracks etc.
Of course, I might be repeating rubbish.
Greg.P. NZ.
Greg Procter - 18 Aug 2007 21:59 GMT > > Jane Sullivan <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ijAUvK > > $r9sxGFA8W@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I thought the RTR stock sold in the US came from the same Chinese factories > as the RTR stock sold in the UK? You're not supposed to think - such actions cause most of the problems in the world! The other 49% are of course caused by people not thinking ;-)
Greg.P.
Jane Sullivan - 18 Aug 2007 16:09 GMT >Jane Sullivan <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ijAUvK >$r9sxGFA8W@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >quality of the available RTR stock (and of course HO is not just a guage >but a scale representation). Have you looked at the cost of American stuff? Yes, there's cheap and cheerful things out there, but decent stuff is expensive.
Cheap and cheerful: http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F7+KIT&CatID=THLD F7 A and B units, powered, 1 for $39.50
Expensive but decent http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?scale=H&manu=920&keywords=emd+f7 F7 A and B units, DC powered, no sound, 1 for $139.98, 2 for $269.98 F7 A and B units with DCC and sound, 1 for $189.98, 2 for $369.98
You might want to buy a complete passenger train Empire Builder: http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/empire_builder Hiawatha: http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/hiawatha
 Signature Jane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html
Chris Wilson - 18 Aug 2007 23:25 GMT > Have you looked at the cost of American stuff? Yes, there's cheap and > cheerful things out there, but decent stuff is expensive. Yup, but the running qualities appear to be so much better, whilst I readily agree that there may not be much difference between modern UK outline diesils with the kettles it would appear to be a different thing altogether. I had a play with something the other day with more wheels than sense and it was fantastic, very, very smooth operation and of course very impressive.
It's all to late for the current layout anyway, it's nearly finished and I would like to run it as intended before it all comes apart to be rebuilt!
 Signature All the best,
Chris Wilson
email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway
simon - 18 Aug 2007 23:24 GMT > Jane Sullivan <spamtrap@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ijAUvK > $r9sxGFA8W@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > quality of the available RTR stock (and of course HO is not just a guage > but a scale representation). What and say goodbye to all those wonderful LMS models for strange looking things - it may be just what were used to. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
Cheers, Simon
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