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Model Forum / General / Railroads / March 2008Lionel new O Gauge... Stourbridge Lion
AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same construction (looked similar) used extensively in Britain (or elsewhere) and where in GB?. I know that extensively means a few scattered around. David On Mar 22, 6:57 pm, "chorley...@hotmail.com" <chorley...@gmail.com> wrote: > AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the > American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > David OK, so I reviewed my sources and Stourbridge Lion and John Bull are not the same, John Bull being built by Stephenson... question remains.. where in Britain would that type of 0-4-0 be found. David >On Mar 22, 6:57 pm, "chorley...@hotmail.com" <chorley...@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >remains.. where in Britain would that type of 0-4-0 be found. >David As delivered John Bull was a standard Stevenson Goods engine and as such might be found on any of the early railways. I think the Liverpool and Manchester had some. The pilot truck and cowcatcher, and the covered tender were American modifications. 0-4-0s like this (as a design) did not last very long, being superceded by 0-6-0 and 0-4-2 designs. The extra axle allowed a heavier, better running engine - the 0-4-0 was unsteady due to its short wheelbase. in the same way that the 2-2-0 passenger engines were superceded by the 2-2-2. Stourbridge Lion was a dead end. It was similar to some of the earlier Stevenson locomotives but these were already obsolete by the Rainhill trials in 1829. Foster Rastrick only built four locomotives. Three for the USA and one for the Canterbury and Whitstable Railway in England. This one id preserved: http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/72c86/ The caption says Rocket but is wrong. It is the Agenoria at the National Railway Museum, York. >On Mar 22, 6:57 pm, "chorley...@hotmail.com" <chorley...@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >remains.. where in Britain would that type of 0-4-0 be found. >David Which one? _Stourbridge Lion_ was an identical twin to _Agenoria_, now in York Museum after a long career in industrial service (ended in the 1870s, IIRC), so "on a colliery line" would be a good answer for her. As to "John Bull", she's a Stephenson standard product, a "Sampson" type (four-coupled version of the "Planet" class) - so just about anywhere in the 1830s and 40s...  SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) >AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the >American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >David Looking at their on line catalogue I see they have brought the Hall and Coaches that were produced for a Harry Potter set out as a Shakespeare Express for 2008. Line 5 of the description will have GWR worshippers choking. Any one know how these Lionel Halls shape up, An O gauge set could make an unusual present for the Nephew. Must be a limited Market for them, most North Americans will not be interested in the GWR and most British will not be aware that Lionel make such a set. Suspect they are "left over" Harry Potter Stock. G.harman >>AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the >>American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >interested in the GWR and most British will not be aware that Lionel >make such a set. Suspect they are "left over" Harry Potter Stock. Lionel's main market is in the USA where three rail coarse-scale AC outsells 2-rail by an order of magnitude. They had relative success with their Thomas sets and I think they expected the same for Harry Potter. The whole country likes Thomas - it has been on children's television here for years. While some shops sold the Hornby Thomas, it wasn't generally available. But the religiously conservative parts of the USA don't like Harry Potter so there is automatically a smaller market. In addition I suspect that most parents who bought Harry Potter trains bought the Bachmann OO which was in most model train shops here. Lionel aren't going to have many 3-rail AC customers in the UK. It's like going back to the dark ages. >G.harman >>> AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the >>> American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > They had relative success with their Thomas sets and I think they > expected the same for Harry Potter. Their Thomas was overscale wasn't it, Gauge 1 running on Gauge 0 track? (kim) >>>> AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the >>>> American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Their Thomas was overscale wasn't it, Gauge 1 running on Gauge 0 track? Percy was way over scale. Thomas not quite so much. But closer to 7mm than 1/4". My club's layout has a Thomas that was converted to 2-rail and gets an outing on open days. Visiting kids love it. >(kim) >>Looking at their on line catalogue I see they have brought the Hall >>and Coaches that were produced for a Harry Potter set out as a >>Shakespeare Express for 2008. >>Any one know how these Lionel Halls shape up, An O gauge set could >>make an unusual present for the Nephew. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Lionel's main market is in the USA where three rail coarse-scale AC >outsells 2-rail by an order of magnitude. For their market I would think they are good fun. ISTR that back when Hornby Dublo was for serious people and Tri-ang decided to put some fun in they took some ideas from Lionel. We know who won that battle. Strange that those who may have had a ducking Giraffe car are now the generation purchasing super detailed models from the Hornby branded successor of Tri-ang. >Lionel aren't going to have many 3-rail AC customers in the UK. It's >like going back to the dark ages. There is a small and growing following though for some Retro style tinplate trains ,looking at one of the main proponents for such offerings http://www.acetrains.com/_index.html I see that some of their production was capable of AC as well as DC though they seem to have settled on DC now. Interestingly I see they have a market for Tenders to upgrade the Lionel product so some collectors must be acquiring the Lionel offering. Not a branch of the hobby that would attract me greatly especially given the prices .That said it is fun watching the old Hornby tin stuff and the modern retro whiz around a train set at a show. There is that satisfying rattle and clatter that does not appear from a model diorama despite the skill and long hours that the constructors have put in. G.Harman >>>AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the >>>American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same >>>construction (looked similar) used extensively in Britain (or >>>elsewhere) and where in GB?. >>>I know that extensively means a few scattered around. Amyone got any idea when/if/from whom it might be available in .uk? I know it'll need adaptation (re-wheeling, re-wiring) to run on FS O is it's anything like the usual Lionel product, but no-one else is doing anything like this. That early 1860s junction between a colliery railway and the main line (with those new, hyper-modern Sharp, Stewart goods engines) looks like it might be do-able much sooner than I ever dared hope... SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) > >AKA John Bull, is being produced in "nominal 'O' gauge" for the > >American market. The question arises: were locomotives of the same [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > G.harman This came up on the 7mm grup a while back. The engine is quite accurate, and one poster reckoned it took a couple of hours to convert to fine scale 2-rail. He'd bought a Hogwarts set, and put the rest on e-bay - the coaches were terrible by all accounts. If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, this could very well be a good option. Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, > this could very well be a good option. How about a link to a picture of one of these beasts? John. > > If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, > > this could very well be a good option. > > How about a link to a picture of one of these beasts? > > John. I haven't grasped from this discussion whether the Lionel model is a scale model, a (plastic) toy, or a tinplate train. I'd be quite intersted in an O scale Stevenson Loco. Regards, Greg.P. >> If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, >> this could very well be a good option. > >How about a link to a picture of one of these beasts? .. and one to a picture of the Lion, too. I've not been able to find one, and it's not for lack of looking :( SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth "Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes) >> If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, >> this could very well be a good option. > >How about a link to a picture of one of these beasts? > >John. Not very good but http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=8D225DE4-B0D0-205 D-B7B009D5589290AA&PageID=1514 is how Lionel themselves present it. G.Harman > >> If one were in need of a cheap engine and didn't mind some modding, > >> this could very well be a good option. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > G.Harman Try <http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=8D225DE4-B0D0-205 D-B7B009D5589290AA&PageID=1516> There's an artist's impression and a prototype photo. Greg.P. [...] >> Not very good but >> http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=8D225DE4-B0D0-205 D-B7B009D5589290AA&PageID=1514 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Greg.P. It's worth remembering "Traditional O Gauge" means something close to 1:48 scale, while "Standard O Gauge" means roughly 3/16" to the foot scale running on O gauge tinplate track. However, Lionel tends not to tell you the actual scale of its trains, so without seeing the model you can't be sure. OTOH, their designers have been quite good at capturing the look of a large engine even when built to a smaller scale so as to run around tinplate track curves. (Designations such as O-27 refer to the _diameter_ of the track circle in inches.) From the meagre information in the on-line catalog, I would say that the Shakespeare Express is close to 1:48. Because the John Bull was a much smaller locomotive overall, it's quite possible that it's 1:48 scale, with some compromises so that it can negotiate O-27 track. But withotu actually seeing and measuring it, you can't know. I've noticed there are some serious factual errors in the catalog, such as describing Kinlet Hall as running on the Great Northern Railway! My assessment: Lionel makes excellent toy trains, but has little if anything to offer the scale modeller. HTH Signaturewolf k. > [...] >>> Not very good but [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 1:48 scale, while "Standard O Gauge" means roughly 3/16" to the foot > scale running on O gauge tinplate track. Sorry, I got that backwards. Silly me... [...] Signaturewolf k. > > [...] > >>> Not very good but [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > wolf k. Not to worry, I wasn't about to buy any of their products, except perhaps that "Great Northern" Hall and the Stephenson loco. Greg.P. > [...] > >> Not very good but [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > -- > wolf k. Hi Wolf, can you make any sense of their G gauge offerings? They don't seem to get any mention amongst G fans. I did see a "Thomas" years ago before I was interested in such things and I did seem to be reasonable (as a toy). Regards, Greg.P. NZ [...] > Hi Wolf, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Greg.P. > NZ I have a Lionel Thomas, it's a very well done toy -- robust, as close to the Awdry dimensions as one can get based on his artwork, etc. The roofs come off Annie and Clarabelle, which delights young children, who can stuff teddy bears and such into the carriages. The power pack is more than adequate. Thomas comes apart enough to service the gears and bearings. I used Teflon-loaded grease, which has lasted better than the original stuff. We ran Thomas regularly at the club last year when we had a large loop of G gauge with several sidings to store the trains. Very popular. His eyes move, too. It's standard 2-rail DC, BTW. I'm a Thomas fan, so I would be pleased with any large scale version, but this one is excellent IMO. My grandchildren are past the Thomas stage, but I'm not. :-) I have mixed feelings about Lionel. The original company made very good toys, and a few scale items as well. Then they went broke, because they refused to conform to NMRA standards, which meant they lost the only market that mattered in the long run, the adults who wanted scale trains of Lionel quality. The current owners cater mostly to the nostalgia market, I think. Signaturewolf k. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >of Lionel quality. The current owners cater mostly to the nostalgia >market, I think. Actually they weren't that good quality. The bodies were robust toys, but they were let down by eg cheap motors in plastic cans without any kind of bushing for the shaft. I don't know about the nostalgia market, but there was a resurgence some years back. These days three rail coarse scale AC from the other manufacturers outsells 2 rail DC by more than four to one in the USA. It's a combination of marketing and tighter curves. > On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:27:24 -0400, "Wolf K." <wolfkir@sympatico.ca> [...] >> I have mixed feelings about Lionel. The original company made very good >> toys, and a few scale items as well. Then they went broke, because they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but they were let down by eg cheap motors in plastic cans without any > kind of bushing for the shaft. Well, the Teflon grease works very well. Thomas has run several hundred hours now, with no sign of trouble. YMMV. BTW, I lubricate all engines, in all scales, after an initial run-in of a couple of hours or so. > I don't know about the nostalgia market, but there was a resurgence > some years back. These days three rail coarse scale AC from the other > manufacturers outsells 2 rail DC by more than four to one in the USA. True. And companies like Atlas offer both 2-rail sand 3-rail versions of most of their scale product. But while kids like to watch any train, Lionel and other tinplate mfrs are marketing to the adults, not the kids (or their grandparents.) The entry-level sets run at two to three times the price of HO sets, which cuts out a large segment of the market. $200-300 for a toy that may not hold interest much beyond the season is too high for most people. OTOH, 2-rail DC is definitely for the scale modeller. There is also growing interest in On30 (O scale running on 16.5mm gauge, representing 30" narrow gauge). This is a nice compromise for people who want larger models but don't have the space for standard gauge O. I suspect a lot of people who hanker after O scale have settled on On30 instead. The Christmas Village people like these trains, too, as they need only slightly more than 3ft of width to fit an oval of On30 track into their dioramas. > It's a combination of marketing and tighter curves. The tighter curves are a bonus for the adult with the usual cramped space for a layout. My experience is that a lot of scale modellers have fond memories of Lionel and other tinplate, but they won't buy it. A few have an old train displayed on a shelf. The people who buy Lionel in contrast a) don't care about scale fidelity, and care little about prototype accuracy; b) are unabashedly reliving their childhood; and c) aren't much interested in scale model layouts even to visit. NB that Kalmbach has recognised this split in the market, and offers a separate magazine for toy train enthusiasts. There is unfortunately in some quarters hostility between the two groups, insofar as they pay attention to each other at all. Signaturewolf k. |
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