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Model Forum / General / Railroads / April 2008Gauges?
I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO as 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use HO for 4ft 8 1/2in and something else for 3ft 6in? On Apr 23, 6:24 pm, "Graham Harrison" <edward.obvious.harris...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote: > I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO as > 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use HO for 4ft 8 1/2in > and something else for 3ft 6in? Well you could model in 3.5mm to the foot scale using HO track for 4ft 8 1/2 and TT ( 12mm guage) track as a close approximation to 3ft 6in. On 23/04/2008 18:24, Graham Harrison said, > I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO as > 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use HO for 4ft 8 1/2in > and something else for 3ft 6in? Depends on what scale you want to model in! If you want to use HO track (16.5mm gauge) for 4'8.5", then you need to model at 3.5mm:ft, so your 3'6" track becomes 12.25mm gauge on the model, which is near as dammit 12mm gauge which by chance Peco sell. (assuming you're not wanting to build your own track.) If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of course still model using HO track for standard gauge (the OO boys are still doing this after many decades) and 12mm track for the narrow gauge, but then both tracks will effectively be narrow gauge.  SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ > If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR > track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of course > still model using HO track for standard gauge (the OO boys are still > doing this after many decades) and 12mm track for the narrow gauge, but > then both tracks will effectively be narrow gauge. What would be the point of using 4mm:ft, as there are only British models available to that scale? At the same time there is no British 3ft 6in railways, so the OP is suggesting a non British railway. So 16.5mm & 12mm track make obvious R-T-R choices. Kevin Martin SignatureTo Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form > > If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR > > track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of course [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kevin Martin A point might be that the Japanese normally use 1:80 scale for representing 3'6" gauge prototypes on 16.5mm scale track. 1435/80 = 17.95mm 1067/80 = 13.3mm Perhaps EM track for 1435mm/4' 8 1/2" and HOm(12mm) or UK TT3(14mm) for 1067mm/3'6" with available Japanese models regauged? The commercial availability of Japanese 3'6" models surely must be the starting point, even though they are built for 16.5mm gauge. Narrowing the model wheel spacings should not be toooo difficult. Greg.P. 8^) > > > If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR > > > track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of course [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Greg.P. > 8^) Lima, once upon a time, did a few Japanese models in HO scale - well, some claimed "HO scale" on 16.5mm track. >> If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR >> track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > models available to that scale? At the same time there is no British 3ft > 6in railways, Tramway at the Black Country Museum? so the OP is suggesting a non British railway. So 16.5mm & > 12mm track make obvious R-T-R choices. > > Kevin Martin SignatureArthur Figgis Surrey, UK >> If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR >>track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Kevin Martin Depends if you count the Isle of Man as British. The Snaefell Mountain Railway is 3ft 6in gauge. SignatureJane British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html Kevin Martin said the following on 25/04/2008 04:12: > What would be the point of using 4mm:ft, as there are only British > models available to that scale? At the time of my post, we didn't know Graham was potentially modelling overseas - I realised this after one of his postings on another completely unrelated newsgroup. There are/were British 3ft 6in railways, although not necessarily in the same place as standard gauge. SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ >> If you want to stick to 4mm:ft, then there really is no suitable RTR >> track available to represent the gauges correctly. You could of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 6in railways, so the OP is suggesting a non British railway. So 16.5mm & > 12mm track make obvious R-T-R choices. I'm fairly sure one of the tramways in the London area was laid as 3'6". Possibly the Highgate Hill cable tramway. Robin > I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO as > 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use HO for 4ft 8 1/2in > and something else for 3ft 6in? The confusion comes from using "gauge" and "scale" interchangeably. Use them correctly, and the confusion disappears. *Scale* is the ratio of the model to the full size trains. HO is 1:87, ie, an HO model is 1/87th of full size. *Gauge* is the distance between the rails, measured at the inside edges. HO gauge is 16.5mm, and it represents 4' 8-1/2" gauge pretty accurately. If you want to run both 3'6" gauge and 4' 8-1/2" gauge trains on the same layout, you model all the trains etc to the same _scale_, and run them on track of different _gauge_. In HO, standard gauge is 16.5mm, and 3'6" gauge is 12.25mm. However, this is not a commercially recognised (== standardised) gauge, so you would use the nearest commercial gauge, which in this case is 12mm, or TT gauge. Then you can sue locomotive mechanisms etc built for 12mm gauge, and build up your own bodies to mount on these. Note tha British OO is 1:76 scale running on 16.5mm track, which makes the track a little narrow for the scale, that doesn't bother most people. In this scale, 3'6" gauge would be 14mm, which corresponds to no commercial gauge, so you would probably use 12mm gauge as for HO. HTH Signaturewolf k. >> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in >> the real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > HTH 14mm is 3mm scale track gauge SignatureTrev You can always tell a Yorkshire man, But you can't tell him much. On 23/04/2008 19:04, Trev said, > 14mm is 3mm scale track gauge ...but isn't available commercially, as 12mm gauge is. SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ >>> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in >>> the real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do >>> I run HO as 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use >>> HO for 4ft 8 1/2in and something else for 3ft 6in? [...] >> Note that British OO is 1:76 scale running on 16.5mm track, which makes >> the track a little narrow for the scale, that doesn't bother most [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 14mm is 3mm scale track gauge Oops, I forgot that TT in the UK is 1:100 instead of 1:120. DSo OP can use 1:76 for his narrow gauges, and decide whether he wanst to go with 16.5mm or 18.83mm gauge for his stndard gauge trains... "It's all rarther confusing really". ;-) HTH Signaturewolf k. >> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the >> real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > HTH I knew I wasn't being accurate in my terminology but I couldn't think of the right words. If I read all the replies correctly, there is no commercially available method of doing the two gauges to the same scale. It would involve hand building etc. Hmmm - maybe one day! Maybe. >>> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the >>> real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > available method of doing the two gauges to the same scale. It would > involve hand building etc. Hmmm - maybe one day! Maybe. If you're willing to compromise and use 12mm gauge to represent 3'6" gauge in OO (4mm scale), you could do it. Keep in mind that narrow gauges had even greater variation on loading gauges than standard gauges. IOW, you can't tell just by general appearance and proportions which narrow gauge a given loco or carriage is running on. So running some 3'6" stuff on 3ft gauge won't look wrong. HTH Signaturewolf k. Graham Harrison said the following on 24/04/2008 16:19: > I knew I wasn't being accurate in my terminology but I couldn't think of the > right words. If I read all the replies correctly, there is no commercially > available method of doing the two gauges to the same scale. It would > involve hand building etc. Hmmm - maybe one day! Maybe. Ah - inspired by your trip to Japan, you want to model Japanese railways ;-) 3.5mm:ft would be your best bet then, where you can use commercial OO/HO track for standard gauge and commercial HOm (12mm) track for the narrow gauge. Both available from Peco. The only compromise in gauge is that the narrow gauge would be 0.25mm too narrow - I'm sure you could live with that. Next you'll be asking about mixed gauge ;-) SignaturePaul Boyd http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ > Graham Harrison said the following on 24/04/2008 16:19: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Next you'll be asking about mixed gauge ;-) :-) I actually bought an HO loco and a couple of wagons - couldn't resist. It's going to look a bit weird among my mainly US kit but it's my railway and I'll run what I want! > Graham Harrison said the following on 24/04/2008 16:19: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > Paul Boydhttp://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ mixed gauge is available from Shinohara which does flex-track, right and left points and combination tracks, where mixed splits into separate narrow and standard tracks. HO scale track HO and HOn3 gauges. Quite nicely made. David On Apr 24, 11:00 am, Paul Boyd <usenet.is.worse@plusnet> wrote: > Graham Harrison said the following on 24/04/2008 16:19: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > -- > Paul Boydhttp://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/ mixed gauge is available from Shinohara which does flex-track, right and left points and combination tracks, where mixed splits into separate narrow and standard tracks. HO scale track HO and HOn3 gauges. Quite nicely made. David I'm not sure I see the point of that in terms of modelling Japan. The Shinkansen uses 4ft 8 1/2 while the rest of the system seems to be 3ft 6 but wherever I went it seemed to be the case that "never the twain shall meet". Thus I wouldn't need mixed gauge just separate tracks to represent the two. What did intrigue me was that several of the tramway systems I encoutered seemed to be 4ft 8 1/2. >> 3.5mm:ft would be your best bet then, where you can use commercial OO/HO >> track for standard gauge and commercial HOm (12mm) track for the narrow [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Next you'll be asking about mixed gauge ;-) >I'm not sure I see the point of that in terms of modelling Japan. The >Shinkansen uses 4ft 8 1/2 while the rest of the system seems to be 3ft 6 but >wherever I went it seemed to be the case that "never the twain shall meet". >Thus I wouldn't need mixed gauge just separate tracks to represent the two. There's a bit of mixed gauge around Toyokawa - the line coming out of the big railway works is certsinly mixed gauge, though I'm not sure how far it extends down the line ("around the bend" was as far as I could tell) SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) >>>3.5mm:ft would be your best bet then, where you can use commercial OO/HO >>>track for standard gauge and commercial HOm (12mm) track for the narrow [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > big railway works is certsinly mixed gauge, though I'm not sure how far it > extends down the line ("around the bend" was as far as I could tell) I'm pretty sure there is standard/3'6" mixed gauge track in both Queensland and Western Australia, and historically in Southern Australia, so that might be a possible market. How do Aussie modellers handle their plethora of gauges? Robin > >>>3.5mm:ft would be your best bet then, where you can use commercial OO/HO > >>>track for standard gauge and commercial HOm (12mm) track for the narrow [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Robin They are Australians, they probably don't notice the difference. ;-) There was at one time, according to an old Meccano Magazine, a point where 5 gauges meet in a station somewhere in Australia. (3'6", 4'8 1/2", Broad, and two different industrial narrow gauges) 3 gauges meet somewhere else in the world. I think it was in Sweden, but I now have no idea where I saw it. Regards, Greg.P. NZ >> > In article <rs2dnQ4aFcnFqIzVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@bt.com>, >> > Graham Harrison <edward.obvious.harrison1@btinternet.obvious.com> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Greg.P. > NZ Three gauges meet at La Tour de Carol in the Pyrenees - 5 ft 6 in (Spanish), standard (French) and metre gauge (Le Petit Train Jaune) on the line from Villefranche. These three routes all have different electrification systems as well, the narrow gauge line being 850 V dc third rail. SignatureRegards John > > > In article <rs2dnQ4aFcnFqIzVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dn...@bt.com>, > > >>>3.5mm:ft would be your best bet then, where you can use commercial OO/HO [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > where 5 gauges meet in a station somewhere in Australia. > (3'6", 4'8 1/2", Broad, and two different industrial narrow gauges) You might be thinking of Petersborough, South Aust where 3 gauges met, dunno about the two industrial NG lines though. They did have a triple gauge turntable there. :) > 3 gauges meet somewhere else in the world. I think it was in Sweden, but > I now have no idea where I saw it. Pass on Sweden :) > Regards, > Greg.P. > NZ- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - >> I'm pretty sure there is standard/3'6" mixed gauge track in both >> Queensland and Western Australia, and historically in Southern [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > They are Australians, they probably don't notice the difference. ;-) It's handled with some difficulty. If you are building a mixed gauge layout then HO is easiest (with 16.5mm and 12mm gauge track and models available) but I have never seen a genuine broad/standard gauge layout in any scale. Most in HO use 16.5mm for both gauges. I have seen dual gauge in HO being represented using gauntlet track. > There was at one time, according to an old Meccano Magazine, > a point where 5 gauges meet in a station somewhere in Australia. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Greg.P. > NZ Don't know about the 5 gauges. There were triple gauge stations at Port Pirie Junction, Gladstone and Peterborough in South Australia. The latter two had triple gauge turntables, Gladstone had much triple- gauge trackwork. Three gauge stations appeared in India often enough. According to one web site "New Jalpaiguri also has the distinction of being the only triple gauge station left in the country and one of the last few left in the world!!". In this case the gauges are 5'6", Metre and 2' gauge (the Darjeeling-Himalaya). John > >>>Next you'll be asking about mixed gauge ;-) > How do Aussie modellers handle their plethora of gauges? We model the well known "Plethora" class locomotives :) Seriously, the Qld NG'ers model in NG in various scales, but the Victorians seem quite happy to model their 5'3" using standfard HO 16.5mm track. The difference is only about 1.8 mm, so not that noticeable. What is the gauge for OO again? :) Steve Magee Newcastle NSW Aust >>Seriously, the Qld NG'ers model in NG in various scales, but the >>Victorians seem quite happy to model their 5'3" using standfard HO >>16.5mm track. The difference is only about 1.8 mm, so not that >>noticeable. What is the gauge for OO again? :) HO on EM track???? > >>Seriously, the Qld NG'ers model in NG in various scales, but the > >>Victorians seem quite happy to model their 5'3" using standfard HO > >>16.5mm track. The difference is only about 1.8 mm, so not that > >>noticeable. What is the gauge for OO again? :) > > HO on EM track???? Yes, some people do that. A very small number (I know of two, but there may be more) model to P87 standards, with a gauge of 18.725mm. Others use 4mm scale and 20 or 21mm gauge. All of these options require handlaying, and scratch built or modified mechanisms, whereas 16.5mm in HO scale is very easy. Especially considering that many locomotives in the diesel era run on both gauges. Indeed, a couple of classes of loco have run on all three gauges. John > >> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > >> real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > available method of doing the two gauges to the same scale. It would > involve hand building etc. Hmmm - maybe one day! Maybe. If you use HO scale, 16.5mm track = 4'8 1/2" gauge and 12mm (TT) = c3'5" which is near enough to be visually indistinguishable. On Apr 25, 1:19 am, "Graham Harrison" <edward.obvious.harris...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote: > >> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > >> real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > available method of doing the two gauges to the same scale. It would > involve hand building etc. Hmmm - maybe one day! Maybe. Here in Australia it's possible to purchase HO scale models (in kit form) of 3'6" gauge prototypes, which run alongside the commercially available HO scale standard gauge models. The narrow gauge runs on 12mm track, also commercially available from Peco, Tillig, Bemo (IIRC). John On Apr 24, 4:19 pm, "Graham Harrison" <edward.obvious.harris...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote: > >> I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > >> real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Tillig, for one, make HO track, some HOm ( 12mm gauge) track, and even dual guage ( HO/HOm) pointwork, so maybe no need to hand build. http://www.fleischmann.com/tillig/tg_hom_track.asp for example > I'm still struggling with gauges. If I want to run trains that, in the > real world, run on 3ft 6in and 4ft 8 1/2in all in one layout do I run HO as > 3ft 6in and then a "bigger" gauge as 4ft 8 1/2in or use HO for 4ft 8 1/2in > and something else for 3ft 6in? If you look at the Peco track range they do HOn which is 3.5mm scale sleepers with N gauge track geometry. Something similar exists for the larger gauges. You could in theory use Z scale track for N scale narrow gauge track as well. Chris |
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