 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General ModelsRailroadsRocketsRadio Controlled Air ModelsHelicoptersLand ModelsWater ModelsModelGeeks.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Model Forum / General / Railroads / May 2008Hornby buys Corgi....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7376855.stm "Toymaker Hornby has bought die-cast model car maker Corgi for £7.5m as part of its strategy of expanding in the hobby and collectibles market." Hmm, I hope they are not heading for their 'Rovex' moment, to many toes in to many pies, this is the third 'non core' purchase (Airfix, Humbrol and now Corgi), diluting the brand has it's risks... > "Toymaker Hornby has bought die-cast model > car maker Corgi for £7.5m as part of its strategy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to many pies, this is the third 'non core' purchase (Airfix, Humbrol and > now Corgi), diluting the brand has it's risks... Of more relevence to this group, Hornby's acquisition of Corgi means they now own the Bassett-Lowke name, bringing an end to the rivalry which dates back to the 1920s I believe. John. <snip> > Of more relevence to this group, Hornby's acquisition of Corgi means > they now own the Bassett-Lowke name, bringing an end to the rivalry > which dates back to the 1920s I believe. Hmm, yes, are they planning to re-brand their live steam range?.... > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7376855.stm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Hmm, I hope they are not heading for their 'Rovex' moment, to many > toes in to many pies, What does it mean to the many toes? Are the toes major shareholders? MBQ > What does it mean to the many toes? Are the toes major shareholders? I think the quote should refer to 'fingers in too many pies'. In the past when Hornby have diversified, they've got their fingers burnt - let's hope that in their seemingly endless drive for growth they don't go there again. Having witnessed the difficulty they've had recently in getting new model railway products out of China, I can't help thinking this acquisition is unlikely to help that cause with both Corgi and Bassett-Lowke coming from the Orient. John. >> What does it mean to the many toes? Are the toes major shareholders? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > John. I think the difference with the 'recent' set of acquistions is they've all, in the main, got one thing in common: they complement the model railway side of Hornby's business (i.e., Airfix do planes at 1:72, Corgi do cars at 1:72, etc). The thing that kind of surprises me is that they haven't ventured into N gauge rolling stock - they do Lyddle End, but not any stock of any kind... Ian J. <snip> > I think the difference with the 'recent' set of acquistions is > they've all, in the main, got one thing in common: they complement > the model railway side of Hornby's business (i.e., Airfix do planes > at 1:72, Corgi do cars at 1:72, I think that might be more a happy coincidence, indeed the Airfix 1:72 scale military vehicle range will - I'm sure - find homes on many layouts, mostly modified no doubt though. > etc). The thing that kind of surprises me is that they haven't > ventured into N gauge rolling stock - they do Lyddle End, but not > any stock of any kind... Perhaps they are going to follow Greg's "Lets re-invent the wheel" logic and re-introduce the old Lima range...! > <snip> >> >> I think the difference with the 'recent' set of acquistions is they've >> all, in the main, got one thing in common: they complement the model >> railway side of Hornby's business (i.e., Airfix do planes at 1:72, Corgi >> do cars at 1:72, And the soldiers are a cheap set of people for a layout - 1940's England and the army were called in to keep te mines running - its my imagination and .... Cheers, Simon >>> What does it mean to the many toes? Are the toes major shareholders? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> John. Make your mind up John, not so long ago you were complainig about them flooding the market with models ! Dont think China production problems are limited to Hornby. However they are almost certainly looking around the globe in case its time to move. Cheers, Simon > Make your mind up John, not so long ago you were complainig about them > flooding the market with models ! There's a difference between reliability of supply and too many models or versions of models. John. 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000In message <5MGdnZ0glbC77IbVnZ2dnUVZ8uWdnZ2d@plusnet> > >> What does it mean to the many toes? Are the toes major shareholders? > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > etc). The thing that kind of surprises me is that they haven't ventured into > N gauge rolling stock - they do Lyddle End, but not any stock of any kind... I wouldn't be surprised if Hornby don't have a cunning plan there. Making N buildings is a far less expensive way of dipping their toe into the N market and establishing their credentials. Once the market has got used to the idea of Hornby = N as well as 00, launching N rolling stock would be far more "acceptable", always assuming they don't do so by further aqusitions[1]. I'm sure Hornby have been keeping a beady eye on Heljan and Skytrex's 0 gauge activities too! Judging by the tone of news reports about Hornby's aquisitions, I rather think thay they have a good deal of respect in "The City" with regard to their activities - well, they must have to get the dosh, or they have a cash mountain stashed away. Hornby were one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably ahead of the game there too. 20 years ago no one would have given a fig for Hornby's chances of survival, but they've hung on in there. The whole model railway scene owes them a debt of gratitude for keeping train sets "on the high street" - no one else could have done it. > Ian J. Cheers Richard [1] I've still got a fiver that says Hornby will own Bachmann Europe at some stage.  Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb <snip> > Judging by the tone of news reports about Hornby's aquisitions, I > rather think thay they have a good deal of respect in "The City" > with regard to their activities - well, they must have to get the Even if they have it doesn't change the fact that their core activities could suffer from diversification, Honrby (as a company) could survive no doubt making/importing widgets but that would not be a good move for railway modellers even if it's good for the City. > dosh, or they have a cash mountain stashed away. Hornby were > one of the pioneers of Chinese production, I think that depends on how one defines 'Chinese production', wasn't both Palitoy and Airfix both out-sourcing their production to that part of the world? and as such are probably > ahead of the game there too. 20 years ago no one would have given a > fig for Hornby's chances of survival, but they've hung on in there. > The whole model railway scene owes them a debt of gratitude for > keeping train sets "on the high street" - no one else could have > done it. Not correct, both Lima, Palitoy and probably Airfix could have done so, they only failed because Hornby were there already, if Hornby had gone belly-up in the late 1970s or early '80s any or all three of the above would have filled their shoes - with (at the time) a better product. > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > both Palitoy and Airfix both out-sourcing their production to that > part of the world? Maybe, but Hornby were in the vanguard (technically it was Hong Kong to start with) of the outsourcibg production race. > and as such are probably > > ahead of the game there too. 20 years ago no one would have given a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > above would have filled their shoes - with (at the time) a better > product. I have to disagree there - to the non-modelling fraternity Hornby = trains, if Hornby had disappeared the likes of Argos etc would have taken it to mean train sets were dead. The others never had any exposure outside the model railway world - how many actually knew that Airfix produced railway stuff at all, never mind ready-to-run trains? If you don't believe me, ask someone you know well enough to ask but doesn't know anout your interest in model railways who makes, or has made, train sets - the answer will most likely be Hornby, or possibly Traing for the older generation. The Hornby brand is incredibly strong, way ahead of even Airfix (as a kid who makes plastic kits and they'll probably say Tamya, or Revell etc - older people will still say Arfix, but that brand has faded over the years. Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb <snip> > The Hornby brand is incredibly strong, way ahead of even Airfix (as It is NOW, that is not to say that it has always been so, at one time Hornby was an incredibly weak brand - people still regarded it as 'cheap tat' even into the 1980s, it was still suffering from the bad name that Tri-ang/Rovex gave it. If Hornby had folded and disappeared in the late 1970s or early 80's the train-set would *not* have died along with it, Lima was in a position to fill the shelves even if Palitoy and Airfix were not. > <snip> > > The Hornby brand is incredibly strong, way ahead of even Airfix (as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > along with it, Lima was in a position to fill the shelves even if > Palitoy and Airfix were not. You miss the point about branding - it's not what the "insiders" in model railway land think, its when Mr. Buyer for High Street Shop Co. Ltd thinks, or Joe Public percieves, and most importantly, what the Mr. Wholesaler Buyer is prepared to bet his job on. Hornby - practically everyone knows the deal. Yu take it home, put it up, plug it in, and off you go. If little Johnny doesn't like it we'll get some money back selling it. If he likes it we can get some more bits to add and our worries about birthday presents are over for years to come. Airfix - they make plastic kit's don't they. Gosh, I'm not glueing that lot together. Or painting them. Palitoy - cheap stuff that may make it to the end of the day. (No offence to Palitoy, but that's peoples perception). Lima - Who? What? The first glance at a product sells it, if people have to look in the box to understand what they are getting exactly, you've lost half your customers before you even start. That's why brand image is so important. There are some truly awful products out there that only sell because the brand is in favour. Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb >> <snip> >>> The Hornby brand is incredibly strong, way ahead of even Airfix (as [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > is so important. There are some truly awful products out there > that only sell because the brand is in favour. A while ago I was in a local model shop when a woman walked in and asked for an "Airfix" plane (she might have specified a Spitfire). The person behind the counter said Airfix had just gone belly-up, and was no more. Oh well, said the woman, if I can't get him a plane it'll have to be something else, and she left. The assistant should perhaps have tried to sell her a Revell or whatever plane, but it was noticeable that she mentioned Airfix (I suspect this was not because she knew that the Revell model is a Mark 1234(b) with a different pattern of rivets to what she wanted!) SignatureArthur Figgis Surrey, UK <snip> > A while ago I was in a local model shop when a woman walked in and > asked for an "Airfix" plane (she might have specified a Spitfire). > The person behind the counter said Airfix had just gone belly-up, > and was no more. Oh well, said the woman, if I can't get him a plane > it'll have to be something else, and she left. > <snip> Perhaps the 'wish list' had "Airfix Spitfire" rather than "A plastic model kit of a Spitfire" listed and the ladies reply was on the grounds of just that, she went on to item two on the list?... :Jerry: wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > model kit of a Spitfire" listed and the ladies reply was on the > grounds of just that, she went on to item two on the list?... As suggested in the bit you snipped, that was a possibility, but I suspect rather unlikely in the situation. If she'd said "Little Willy wants the Airfix special edition 1:48 Swiss navy Seafire with left-handed control column and mark 5 octagonal rivets" it might have been different. SignatureArthur Figgis Surrey, UK >Not correct, both Lima, Palitoy and probably Airfix could have done >so, they only failed because Hornby were there already, if Hornby had >gone belly-up in the late 1970s or early '80s any or all three of the >above would have filled their shoes - with (at the time) a better >product. Disagree. The Power of Hornby is the name - just Like, say, Lionel in the US or Marklin in Germany. Outside modelling circles, Joe Public in the UK, who wants to buy a train set for little Johnny, wants a Hornby set, which is precisely why Tri-ang/Rovex wanted the Hornby name on the demise of Meccano Limited. Tri-ang did not want the factory, or the staff, or the tooling, or the stock. They just wanted the name. Hornby is a powerful name, just like Hoover, or Biro. SignatureGraeme >>Not correct, both Lima, Palitoy and probably Airfix could have done >>so, they only failed because Hornby were there already, if Hornby [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > wanted the name. Hornby is a powerful name, just like Hoover, or > Biro. So you are saying that if Hornby had not survived either of it's two (three) financial crises in the 1970s and 1980s people would have stopped buying train-sets even though other companies had stepped in a filled the shelves?... The point is, if the name no longer exists they will still buy the product, just as no one who bought Rover have stopped buying cars just because the name has disappeared from the showroom. >>>Not correct, both Lima, Palitoy and probably Airfix could have done >>>so, they only failed because Hornby were there already, if Hornby had [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the product, just as no one who bought Rover have stopped buying cars just > because the name has disappeared from the showroom. Dont think that is what was suggested. More if Hornby name had not survived then someone would have asked for it, told its not available but considered alternatives. However as it did survive then alternatives frequently not considered. Cheers, Simon >"Graeme" <Graeme@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >stopped buying train-sets even though other companies had stepped in a >filled the shelves?... Not quite, because I don't think such a situation would have arisen. Had Hornby failed, yet another company would have bought and used the Hornby name. The contents of the box is far less important than the name on the outside of the box. > The point is, if the name no longer exists they >will still buy the product, just as no one who bought Rover have >stopped buying cars just because the name has disappeared from the >showroom. <Grin> Indeed, but there are still people who buy Rover cars because of the name, even though the original Rover company disappeared generations ago. When was Rover an independent company? I have no idea. They were part of BMC in the 50s, and, like Hornby, have survived as a name only. SignatureGraeme SignatureTrev You can always tell a Yorkshire man, But you can't tell him much. >>"Graeme" <Graeme@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > ago. When was Rover an independent company? I have no idea. They were > part of BMC in the 50s, and, like Hornby, have survived as a name only. Never part of BMC. it was BMC that was Forced on to Standard Triumph Rover to form British Leyland. >> <Grin> Indeed, but there are still people who buy Rover cars because of >> the name, even though the original Rover company disappeared generations [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Never part of BMC. it was BMC that was Forced on to Standard Triumph Rover >to form British Leyland. Whoops. Yes, my memory is going. SignatureGraeme <snip utter clap-trap> The average punter will buy what is available, brand doesn't come into it were *train-sets* are concerned. > <Grin> Indeed, but there are still people who buy Rover cars because > of the name, even though the original Rover company disappeared > generations ago. When was Rover an independent company? 1967. The first victim of the Leyland merger was Alvis Cars whose products competed head-on with Rover and Jaguar. Daimler bus production was also halted. (kim) >1967. The first victim of the Leyland merger was Alvis Cars whose products >competed head-on with Rover and Jaguar. Daimler bus production was also >halted. Difficult to keep up with all these changes. I was talking to a bus enthusiast on Saturday, and he was telling me about Dennis. I had not realised that Dennis fire engines, buses, dustcarts etc. were not all the same Dennis these days. SignatureGraeme > >1967. The first victim of the Leyland merger was Alvis Cars whose products > >competed head-on with Rover and Jaguar. Daimler bus production was also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > realised that Dennis fire engines, buses, dustcarts etc. were not all > the same Dennis these days. When I was at Lucas Rists we had a chart of who owns what in the motor industry, and it is indeed a tangled web. From the historical perspective it was interesting as it threw up some of the contradictions in the public perceptions of vehicles. When Volvo cars were making their mark as (possibly over) sturdy reliable vehicles, they had more British content that a "British" cars. All the electrics were supplied by Lucas, just with the 'A' surfaces (the finish) changed, often with Volvo badging. Yet Lucas were awful in a Britsh car, and wonderful in a Volvo. From a different thread - that is the power of branding. As for BL history, when reading up one has to be very careful to identify the writers meaning, or interpretation, of "owned" etc. Both Jaguar and Land Rover were set up as seperate companies (in terms of legal entities) in the early 80's (might have been late 70's), but still used Leylands central resources until Gaydon was built. In the case of Jaguar it was done as managmenet finaly realised that Jaguar had a particular image, and being seen to seperate it could revitalise the brands flagging fortunes, for Land Rover it was most likely done to perpare for sale to Ford (first time round), which failed after public pressure was applied. Also, Sir Anothony Wedgwood-Benn (title dropped, but dosh kept), was keen to inject money into Land Rover, and Land Rover only, for development of the "Stage I" update of the Series III for export, which could only be ring-fenced by having a sperate entity. Both still remained as part of Leyland (or whatever it was being called that week) in reality. i.e. their Boards acted as directed by BL. The same sort of thing was going on with Rover/Land Rover in the early 90's when I worked there for a spell. Rover, MG and Land Rover were theortically separate entites, each employee having a badge on their jacket to show which they worked for. In reality most engneering staff simply had all three badges on their jackets and worked interchangeably between the three. The bean counters might have viewed them as saparate compaines, but in day-to-day terms it was all just one, once away from the production lines. There's an Open University programme that covers all the wheeling and dealing from Jaguars persepective which is most enlightening - more than few sharp knives heading towards various backs. Presumably this would now be in the Ancient History section of their archives - kipper ties and all! Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb Hornby were > one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably > ahead of the game there too. I don't accept that. Bachmann moved production to China (from Hong Kong) years before Hornby, and most of the USA manufacturers moved there well before them too. As with most things, Hornby followed rather than led. John. <snip> > As with most things, Hornby followed rather than led. ...and then try and claim the credit! > Hornby were >> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > As with most things, Hornby followed rather than led. Not necessarily a bad thing in this context. The first people in to China had their designs stolen and were quite frankly used as cash cows to seed the emerging Chinese economy. By waiting until the Chinese achieved a degree of responsibility and respectability Hornby has quite possibly saved themselves millions. Indeed if they'd gone over any earlier - considering their finances they could have lost everything. Just my 2ps worth. SignatureAll the best, Chris Wilson email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway >> Hornby were >>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > themselves millions. Indeed if they'd gone over any earlier - considering > their finances they could have lost everything. Just my 2ps worth. But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you can steal ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese wanted to steal a Hornby design they could just take a model apart and copy it. Plus you forget that Hornby's models are about ten years behind what the Chinese\ Hong Kongese (is that a word?) are making for the rest of the world. Fred X > But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you can steal > ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese wanted to steal a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Fred X The Chinese had an incredibley sophisticated counterfeiting network. Who is to say a few extra models don't roll off the production line and turn up in the market place. Kevin >> But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you can steal >> ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese wanted to steal a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in > the market place. No one would waste their time counterfeiting/stealing British models as the market for them is too small. Fred X > >> But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you can steal > >> ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese wanted to steal a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > No one would waste their time counterfeiting/stealing British models as the > market for them is too small. Bachmann sells Thomas the Tank Engine range outside the UK. >> Zen83237 <zen83237@zen.co.uk> wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bachmann sells Thomas the Tank Engine range outside the UK. That hardly constitutes counterfeiting, which involves deceit and fraud. They are different models, and no one tries to represent them as Hornby. The same licensing arrangement applies for Harry Potter trains. SignatureMartin S. > >> >> But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you can > >> >> steal ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese wanted [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > They are different models, and no one tries to represent them as Hornby. > The same licensing arrangement applies for Harry Potter trains. I was only responding to: ">> as the market for them is too small." No-one counterfeits Hornby today for the same reason that no-one counterfeits Ladas or Yugos. >> >> >> But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you >> >> >> can steal ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > No-one counterfeits Hornby today for the same reason that no-one > counterfeits Ladas or Yugos. Relative to the size of the population, the market for model trains in Britain is probably higher than in most countries. SignatureMartin S. > >> >> >> But model railways aren't really the kind of product where you > >> >> >> can steal ideas directly from the manufacturer. If the Chinese [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Relative to the size of the population, the market for model trains in > Britain is probably higher than in most countries. Ahh, but do Brits buy many Ladas and Yugos? Yes, Brits and Germans are probably at the top of the list, although the Dutch, Swiss, Belgians etc must be well up there. New Zealanders 50 years ago were probably at the top, but rugby, boating etc probably took the edge off. Nowadays it's hard to find a decent model train shop. :-( Greg.P. >>> Hornby were >>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the Chinese\ Hong Kongese (is that a word?) are making for the rest of > the world. Wasn't just that, the other one they were good at was a variation of the "Long Firm Fraud" but playing the suppliers role rather than the more usual buyers role. They took millions that way and at the time there was no effective remedy. SignatureAll the best, Chris Wilson email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway > Hornby were > > one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > John. According to the glorious web, Hornby *finished* moving prodution in 1995, and Bachmann stared moving production in 1992, so it would seem that they were both at it at the same time. There is a big difference though, Bachmann has been owned by Kader, based in Hong Kong (set up by one Ting Hsiung Chao) since 1984, Bachmanns delay in transferring production is rather bemusing! ("Politics"?) Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb >> Hornby were >> > one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cheers > Richard It is interesting that the success of a company is now gauged by how quickly they transfer production to China. On that basis Rover is well ahead of most of the European, Japanese and American car manufacturers, I think not. I must remember that the next time I am out shopping. Now in which year did company X transfer production and therefore leading the field. But then this uk.rec.models.I hate hornby. Kevin >>> Hornby were >>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It is interesting that the success of a company is now gauged by how > quickly they transfer production to China. From the narrow, short-term point of view of the stockmarket, yes. (kim) >>>> Hornby were >>>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >From the narrow, short-term point of view of the stockmarket, yes. If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. > >>>> Hornby were > >>>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are > almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. US companies come and collapse inside a year. > US companies come and collapse inside a year. Any idea how many times that's happened to Hornby? John. > > US companies come and collapse inside a year. > > Any idea how many times that's happened to Hornby? > > John. AFAIK it's never approached "quarterly". Greg.P. >> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. > > US companies come and collapse inside a year. Marks & Spencer and Boots came into Canada and collapsed within a few years. SignatureMartin S. >>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. >> US companies come and collapse inside a year. > > Marks & Spencer and Boots came into Canada and collapsed within a few > years. Boots is still around as Pharmasave, which is doing well enough. Signaturewolf k. >>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >>>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Boots is still around as Pharmasave, which is doing well enough. Correction - Pharma Plus. Both Boots and M&S tried to apply their successful British formula to the Canadian market, which they badly misjudged. Boots acquired the Tamblyn Group from Loblaws in 1979, and sold out to the Oshawa Group in 1988. The Pharma Plus franchise now operates under Katz Group Canada Ltd., along with Rexall, Guardian, IDA, Medicine Shoppe and others. Katz plans to re-brand its pharmacies under the Rexall banner, as the main competitor to Shoppers Drug Mart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katz_Group_of_Companies#Pharma_Plus M&S were in Canada from 1973 to 1999. Their stores were smaller than in the UK, and couldn't compete with Eaton's, Sears, The Bay, Woolco etc. Granada TV Rental was also in Canada briefly, but rental was never popular here, especially when prices started to drop. SignatureMartin S. >>>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >>>>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Granada TV Rental was also in Canada briefly, but rental was never > popular here, especially when prices started to drop. Thanks for the details. Signaturewolf k. >>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Marks & Spencer and Boots came into Canada and collapsed within a few >years. I used to get the Marks and Sparks Christmas cake from a British tea room in up-state New York that got them from Canada. > >> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are > >> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Marks & Spencer and Boots came into Canada and collapsed within a few > years. I'm lead to understand that's the American side of the Atlantic. (although given NATO today, both sides ...) >>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >>>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'm lead to understand that's the American side of the Atlantic. > (although given NATO today, both sides ...) It didn't take long for the English side of Marks & Spencer to follow suit. Boots is only a pale shadow of what it used to be as well. (kim) > >>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are > >>>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > (kim) M&S are set to back into Europe apparenty, now they have got their act together. Stand by for one of the few remaining items of British family silver to be sold..... Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb >>>>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports >>>>>> are almost a life time compared with the US where they are [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > M&S are set to back into Europe apparenty, now they have got their > act together. I'm not impressed by all the window dressing at M&S. The goods they sell nowadays are shoddy beyond belief. I've had socks dissolve in the wash, trouser gussets wear out after only minimal use and boxer shorts which are practically impossible to iron. Tills have been closed such that you have to walk miles to find one that's still open and then queue for ages to be served. (kim) [....] boxer shorts which are > practically impossible to iron.[...] You iron boxer shorts???? Signaturewolf k. > [....] boxer shorts which are > > practically impossible to iron.[...] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > wolf k. You never wondered why you have a wrinkled bottom? > [....] boxer shorts which are >> practically impossible to iron.[...] > > You iron boxer shorts???? I don't even iron my shirts. About the only thing I do iron is pocket handkerchiefs. SignatureMartin S. > About the only thing I do iron is pocket handkerchiefs. That's something I can't remember ever owning, well not since Kleenex came onto the market. John. >> About the only thing I do iron is pocket handkerchiefs. > > That's something I can't remember ever owning, well not since Kleenex > came onto the market. It helps stop the loose change from jingling in my pocket. SignatureMartin S. > It helps stop the loose change from jingling in my pocket. Get a man purse or whatever they're called. John. >> It helps stop the loose change from jingling in my pocket. > > Get a man purse or whatever they're called. Hankies are cheaper. SignatureMartin S. >> [....] boxer shorts which are >>> practically impossible to iron.[...] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > About the only thing I do iron is pocket handkerchiefs. What's an iron? SignatureArthur Figgis Surrey, UK >>> [....] boxer shorts which are >>>> practically impossible to iron.[...] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What's an iron? its a substitute weapon when she cant find the rolling pin or is feeling very emotional (often calendar related). Cheers, Simon >>> [....] boxer shorts which are >>>> practically impossible to iron.[...] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What's an iron? It's what housekeepers leave behind when they die. (kim) >> >>>> If you think Britain is short term, its annual company reports are >> >>>> almost a life time compared with the US where they are quarterly. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Cheers > Richard Curiously, there is a chain of clothes shops in France branded as 'M&S'- I wonder if my learned friends are aware? Brian >Boots is only a pale shadow of what it used to be as well. > >(kim) When did it stop having a book library attached to it? G.Harman >>>> Hornby were >>>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > (kim) I was thinking from the customer perspective. Bachmann are better than Hornby because they transferred production to China first. Kevin > >>>> Hornby were > >>>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I was thinking from the customer perspective. Bachmann are better than > Hornby because they transferred production to China first. From the customer point of view, quality and price are of some importance. > From the customer point of view, quality and price are of some > importance. Some great importance in fact. John. > > From the customer point of view, quality and price are of some > > importance. > > Some great importance in fact. > > John. They are second and third on my list of criteria. Greg.P. >> > From the customer point of view, quality and price are of some >> > importance. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Greg.P. There was no suggestion that the moves to China were anything to do with quality. There is some pretty shoddy stuff coming out of China as well as good stuff. Kevin > There was no suggestion that the moves to China were anything to do with > quality. There is some pretty shoddy stuff coming out of China as well as > good stuff. With both Hornby and Bachmann quality has improved significantly since production moved to China. There was some pretty shoddy stuff coming out of Margate and Hong Kong before the switch. John. [...] >>> Richard >> It is interesting that the success of a company is now gauged by how [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (kim) Don't blame the stock market as such - it merely reflects and reacts to what's happened in the business law. Some years ago, a judge ruled that a corporation was a "person" within th meaning of the law. That unloaded personal responsibility from management and owners, and placed it on the corporation. Not many years after that, another judge ruled that the primary obligation of management was to maximise shareholder value. Although these were US rulings, they've had an effect on corporate/management behaviour everywhere else. And keep in mind that if you have a private pension (in addition to the state pension), you are benefitting from that short term stock-market, shareholder-value-maximising view. Your pension plan receives dividends from its investments in equity stocks, among others. "Keep your stick on the ice. We're all in this together" (Red Green.) Signaturewolf k. > [...] > >>> Richard [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > "Keep your stick on the ice. We're all in this together" (Red Green.) But the Stock Market is extrememly short-termist. If Scroggins PLC are having to divert all their funds into new product development and therefore cannot afford to pay a dividened, the expected level of which has been decided by a few poeple who have no real knowledge of the company, their shares will be trashed. So they pay the dividend, don't develop the new product, and go bust. But the City is happy, for that one year thet got their dividend. The fact that they have guaranteed that there will be no more dividends in the future seems to be irrelevant to them. It's a sure fire method of ensuring that companies get smaller/weaker rather than bigger/better as would result from a longer-term view. Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb > >> Hornby were > >> > one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are probably [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > company X transfer production and therefore leading the field. But then this > uk.rec.models.I hate hornby. If you are happy to pay about £200-£250 for an engine I'm sure Hornby would be delighted to manufacture in the UK, but you'd have to be quick before they went bust. Almost all car manufacturers do already build in China, currently mostly for the Chinese/Far East market, but that could easily change. The Germans, Italians, Spanish and particularly the French have healthy car industries because they have a significant proportion of their population who would never consider buying foriegn vehicles whether good or bad, whereas we insist on ridiculing our own products, whether good or bad. Two examples : Thomson (French) used to have the most efficient TV tube factory in Europe in Gosport. When manufacturing needed to be concentrated at two sites rather than three, the Gosport factory was closed. Thompson had the decency to admit that the best factory was closing because if they closed a French one they would meet stiff consumer resistance in France, so they quite sensibly closed the UK one as we would not give a toss as long as it was cheap. Michellin closed almost all of their Stoke plant, again one of the most efficient, for exactly the same reasons. Indeed, when they tried to close a French factory the place was pretty much burned down in protest. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to supporting our own jobs, it's not "they" that move production, it's *us*, by keeping it popular to slag off British products (I've met people who would not buy Bush because they thought it was British) and always trying to save a bob. Until, of course, it's our job that's going, then suddenly everyone else is wrong for not supporting us. The classic is the typically southern England UK farmer demanding we buy British, while sitting in his Japanese 4x4 - a clear message that he can have what he wants, but we must have what he sells. I'm happy to report that round these parts the opposite is true, and I more than prepared to listen to farmers outlining their troubles as they sit in the Land Rover - in return we buy local meat from a local farm and still have our milk delivered from a local farm, even though both would be a lot cheaper at Morrisons. Thats real "Fair Trade" in my book. > Kevin Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb [...] > Michellin closed almost all of their Stoke plant, again one of the > most efficient, for exactly the same reasons. Indeed, when they > tried to close a French factory the place was pretty much burned > down in protest. The Michelin tires we get here are made in Korea. > We are our own worst enemy when it comes to supporting our own jobs, > it's not "they" that move production, it's *us*, by keeping it > popular to slag off British products (I've met people who would not > buy Bush because they thought it was British) and always trying to save > a bob. Nah, the zombies who buy at Walmart are worse. They want union scale wages and sweatshop prices. [...] Signaturewolf k. >>>> Hornby were >>>>> one of the pioneers of Chinese production, and as such are [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > vehicles whether good or bad, whereas we insist on ridiculing our > own products, whether good or bad. There are other reasons for buying foreign cars too. The British don't like owning the same car as someone else living in the same street or within their own circle of acquaintance so they go out of their way to find something obscure. I was walking through the car park of a nearby superstore and was amazed to find no two cars were of the same make, and it was a very big car park! Also, the pre-tax price of cars in the UK is much lower than in surrounding countries so there is more financial incentive to import from abroad. (kim) > If you are happy to pay about £200-£250 for an engine I'm sure Hornby > would be delighted to manufacture in the UK, Bachmann's bog standard Chinese built QJ was £180 so not far off £200. Anyway this is deviating from the statement that Hornby where somewhat inferior to Bachmann because Bachmann moved their production to China first. Kevin :Jerry: wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7376855.stm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > toes in to many pies, this is the third 'non core' purchase (Airfix, > Humbrol and now Corgi), diluting the brand has it's risks... As long as they don't put "Hornby" on the Corgi boxes, they'll do just fine. Signaturewolf k. > As long as they don't put "Hornby" on the Corgi boxes, they'll do > just fine. I'm more worried that it might be the other way around, trying to cash in on more 'collectors' rather than their core market - the modeller... :~( :Jerry: wrote: >> As long as they don't put "Hornby" on the Corgi boxes, they'll do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in on more 'collectors' rather than their core market - the > modeller... :~( Well, I've been wondering about that. Firstly, there's bit of collector in pretty well every modeller I know. I mean, how many modellers do you know who own only as many locos as they actually _need_ for their layout?> Or carriages and wagons, for that matter? ;-) Secondly, over the past few years there has been an increase in the variety of models produced. Not only are a variety of engines being offered, more and more are being offered in prototypically correct liveries with prototypically correct detail variations. Partly this is a function of CAD/CAM, which makes molds cheaper, but mostly I think it's the collector who wants "one of each." True, the modeller benefits, because now he can have a loco that fits his layout exactly, or will do so with minimal rework. But considering that some of the liveries are quite obscure (esp. here in N. America, where there are dozens of short lines), I don't think it's the modeller that's driving the market. I mean, are there really a couple hundred modellers of the Green Bay and Wwestern? I doubt it, yet several GB&W loco have been offered over the past few years. I've also noticed that some of my friends assemble whole trains, without regard for the supposed line or ear they are modelling on their layouts. they just like to have "some of each", I guess. Confession: I like the Soo Line, both when it painted its diesels maroon with "gold" lettering, and a little later when it switched to blinding white with large black letters and a scarlet front ends. But I don't _model_ the Soo. I just acquire a loco from time to time.... ;-) So I think that the collecting urge is one of the major drivers of the market. Signaturewolf k. > So I think that the collecting urge is one of the major drivers of the > market. > > -- > wolf k. At the moment I don't have a real layout and all my locos are in a display case, so I guess that makes me a collector. They have all, however, been test run and chipped and await the day when I find my "round tuit". I thionk some purchasing is also driven by the recent batch manufacture culture. If you don't buy that loco today, can you be sure you will not have to pay through the nose for one later? I read that the latest Heljan special (Kestrel or something? Wrong scale for me so I don't pay too much attention), yet to be produced, has already sold out. On the other hand, it seems that with some manufacturers it pays to wait for a second batch when they have, hopefully, ironed out all the problems. I don't mopel the LNER but I will buy a Dapol B17 if they release 61653, because it means something to me, rather than being appropriate for the layout. Rule 1 applies here. MBQ > > So I think that the collecting urge is one of the major drivers of the > > market. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > MBQ It's interesting what you say about batches. When trying to decide what gauge to retrun to, one of the thoughts I had was the possible difficulty of actually getting what I wanted, e.g. a Class 47 in proper blue livery (none of those ugly large logo's etc), when I wanted one (I don't do s/h unless really pushed). It was actually the thought of having to repaint a model that got me thinking that I might look at kits, which led to thinking O, which led to.... The "batch culture" actually back-fired on the manufacturers there, though I doubt they'll be up all night worring about it! Cheers Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb <snip> > So I think that the collecting urge is one of the major drivers of > the market. That may very well be the case now [1], that is what's worrying me is - is that market sustainable? - I fear it might not be, collecting 'fads' come and go, collectors move on (sometimes even at a loss), we are already seeing a separation between the highly detailed models sold for a premium and the less detailed models sold at 'train-set' prices (such as the Hornby Railroad range), I fear that if Hornby are now going for the collector rather than for the person who would have in the past bought and built an etched brass or white metal kit they and the hobby could catch a very bad cold in not worse. [1] not helped by market distorting auctions web sites, such a (crim)eBay, where 'auction fever' so often suppresses common sense... > :Jerry: wrote: > >> As long as they don't put "Hornby" on the Corgi boxes, they'll do [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know who own only as many locos as they actually _need_ for their > layout?> Or carriages and wagons, for that matter? ;-) That creature is surely just a myth - or a beginner? ;-) Greg.P. :Jerry: wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in on more 'collectors' rather than their core market - the > modeller... :~( Their core market is surely the "toy market"? > :Jerry: wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Their core market is surely the "toy market"? Agree with you there and corgi products are just more toys. So although there may be slight difference in the markets the business model remains the same and with buying the company then they get the people that have the knowledge of the new market. Cheers, Simon ps Only agreed with Greg cos he gave an answer to my question on other thread. :-) > > :Jerry: wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > ps Only agreed with Greg cos he gave an answer to my question on other > thread. :-) You're back to only one point off my Christmas Card list! ;-) Greg.P. >> :Jerry: wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > model remains the same and with buying the company then they get the > people that have the knowledge of the new market. Sorry but Corgi have long accepted that children don't play with their products anymore, kids are more likely to be playing the latest computer game that allows them to drive a car - assuming that the older ones are not busy trying to drive someone else's real car! - rather than playing with a model of one on their bedroom carpet... Corgi are/were very much in the collectors market and have aimed their products and marketing in that direction for many years now. >>> :Jerry: wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Corgi are/were very much in the collectors market and have aimed their > products and marketing in that direction for many years now. Yeah, somehow I don't think it's children spending £50-60 on HGV models, especially not when they can buy things like GTA 4 for almost half that price. Fred X <snip> > Yeah, somehow I don't think it's children spending £50-60 on HGV models, > especially not when they can buy things like GTA 4 for almost half that > price. IIRC, the RRP for GTA IV is somewhere between forty five and fifty pounds at the moment. SignatureJades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web. nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > IIRC, the RRP for GTA IV is somewhere between forty five and fifty > pounds at the moment. Yes, but it can be bought for £40 from most places. Fred X >>> :Jerry: wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the collectors market and have aimed their products and marketing in that > direction for many years now. Its the broad definition of toys that includes 'models for adult collectors'. But they may bring out a range equivalent to current Skaledale one - I bought 3 but havent seen 2 of them since his nibs found them. Some children still love cars as well as games consoles. See Humbrol/Airfix is bringing out a range of railway related colours in autumn - theres an LMS crimson included. Cheers, Simon > See Humbrol/Airfix is bringing out a range of railway related colours > in autumn - theres an LMS crimson included. That's nothing new. Humbrol made them in the 1960's. Whether the quality will be as good remains to be seen. Humbrol also made a range of poster paints for making backdrops. (kim) >> See Humbrol/Airfix is bringing out a range of railway related colours >> in autumn - theres an LMS crimson included. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > (kim) Pardon moi for being an upstart to the hobby - re-introducing then. Its colours so not a chance of pleasing more than 20% of population. Be down to those what like Hornby/Humbrol say its great and the rest say something different. In a similar vein noticed in adverts for recent Bachmann jubilee that their red looks very bright, thought that wont please many. Then looked at model which have had since beginning of the year - that looks too bright esp next to home painted kit loco. Whether to weather an rtr ? Cheers, Simon > Its colours so not a chance of pleasing more than 20% of population. Be > down to those what like Hornby/Humbrol say its great and the rest say > something different. Bearing in mind that around 50% of enthusiasts model the *diesel age* (with a significant interest in the current scene) it's a real problem, I would have thought, to decide just what to include in that range. In the BR steam era, perhaps a dozen colours would cover most uses, but would anyone like to hazzard a guess how many would be needed for the current railway scene with all the TOCs, Freight operators etc.? John. <snip> [ re paint ] In the BR steam > era, perhaps a dozen colours would cover most uses, but would anyone > like to hazzard a guess how many would be needed for the current > railway scene with all the TOCs, Freight operators etc.? Time for an 'in store' mixing/tinting service... > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Time for an 'in store' mixing/tinting service... What, you mean take a side panel from a Class 66 into a shop and say "can you colour match this"? :) Fred X > That's nothing new. Humbrol made them in the 1960's. More to the point railway colours were the start of Humbrol's business. I met the company's founder many years ago, and he told me that he started the business because he couldn't get any accurate railway colours for his hobby use. John. >> That's nothing new. Humbrol made them in the 1960's. > > More to the point railway colours were the start of Humbrol's > business. I met the company's founder many years ago, and he told > me that he started the business because he couldn't get any accurate > railway colours for his hobby use. Doesn't the company originate from the Hull area, hence the 'Hum'(ber) part of the name? > >> That's nothing new. Humbrol made them in the 1960's. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Doesn't the company originate from the Hull area, hence the 'Hum'(ber) > part of the name? Jerry, Yes, I believe you are right and also believe that the brand name "Humbrol" came from the owning company |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message