Bachmann Hall DCC on Board
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Mark - 18 Aug 2008 11:50 GMT Hello,
I have a brand new Bachmann Hall 32-000DC with 'DCC on board'
It runs perfectly in a normal DC setup.
When I put it on my DCC (Digitrax) layout it appears to run fine at slow and fast speed. However at a medium speed it 'pulses' along the track.
Any ideas how to correct this problem
Many thanks
Mark
Nigel Cliffe - 18 Aug 2008 12:03 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > track. > Any ideas how to correct this problem Guessing a bit, but I've experienced issues with a Digitrax system with mis-matches between the speed steps on the decoder and the command station. I would check the speed steps (in CV29) and that the command station is using the same for that loco.
 Signature Nigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Mark - 18 Aug 2008 13:35 GMT Hi,
I have now tested the loco on a Lenz setup and the same thing happens.
Mark
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mark Steve - 18 Aug 2008 13:56 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > Mark Two ideas - check the board the decoder plugs into - snip off any capacitors you can see, replace any chokes with bits of wire cut off the end of a resistor or from 4 core telephone cable. Also the Bachmann docoder is questionable, try another one if you can.
Steve Magee Newcastle NSW Aust
John Turner - 18 Aug 2008 20:03 GMT > When I put it on my DCC (Digitrax) layout it appears to run fine at slow > and fast speed. However at a medium speed it 'pulses' along the track. > > Any ideas how to correct this problem As others have suggested, snip the capacitors which bridge the two brush holders and if that has no effect try adjusting the decoder feedback settings.
If all else fails fit a decent decoder.
John.
Mark - 18 Aug 2008 22:58 GMT Problem solved.
The default setting for cv54 is 32. Change it to 3 and the loco works perfectly.
Thanks for all the help
Mark
>> When I put it on my DCC (Digitrax) layout it appears to run fine at slow >> and fast speed. However at a medium speed it 'pulses' along the track. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John. kim - 19 Aug 2008 16:41 GMT > Problem solved. > > The default setting for cv54 is 32. Change it to 3 and the loco works > perfectly. That's interesting. I have a DCC-fitted Class 25 which runs poorly at low speed. There are reasons why I would rather not snip any capacitors for now. Would changing a CV value improve matters?
(kim)
Wolf Kirchmeir - 20 Aug 2008 13:53 GMT >> Problem solved. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > (kim) Yes, but make sure there is no mechanical problem. DCC cannot compensate for a poor mechanism.
Read the manual that came with your DCC system and the decoder, it should have a list of the CVs implemented on that device, and their recommended values. Try 128 step speed control (CV29), and adjust the starting voltage setting (CV2, which is effectively the lowest-speed setting.)
For an overview on DCC CVs, see both NMRA and MOROP websites.
HTH
 Signature wolf k.
Graham Harrison - 20 Aug 2008 15:54 GMT > For an overview on DCC CVs, see both NMRA and MOROP websites. > > HTH So why doesn't the UK (or any of the constituent countries) have a "MOROP Federation"?
Wolf Kirchmeir - 20 Aug 2008 17:17 GMT >> For an overview on DCC CVs, see both NMRA and MOROP websites. >> >> HTH > > So why doesn't the UK (or any of the constituent countries) have a > "MOROP Federation"? Probably because you have too many little groups that are convinced that their way is The Only True path To Scale Model Fidelity.
A more likely reason is that in N. America scale modelling (as opposed to toy trains) was more affordable, so that there were more people who wanted to run trains on each other layouts, which led early on to a realisation that standards that enabled interoperability were essential. This was especially true since a very large proportion of the models were scratch or kit built, not finished products. There's also less respect for "the trade" -- if manufacturers weren't going to agree on standards that suited their customers, then the customers would do it for them.
And they did. Many companies that followed those standrads are still with us, while the major player (Lionel) that didn't want to play in that sandbox and went broke. The brand had enough cachet that eventually it was bought by investors who saw a (mostly nostalgia-driven) niche market for O gauge toy trains.
A related reason is that scale modelling and toy trains were almost from the beginning different interests, so that the major manufactures (especially Lionel and American Flyer) couldn't dominate the hobby the way that Hornby and Maerklin, for example, dominated in the UK and Europe.
HTH
 Signature wolf k.
beamendsltd - 21 Aug 2008 08:34 GMT > >> For an overview on DCC CVs, see both NMRA and MOROP websites. > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Probably because you have too many little groups that are convinced that > their way is The Only True path To Scale Model Fidelity. Hardly, we have standards and accpeted bodies in all scales, and have had for years - the only exeptions being HO and the like which are little used. De-facto standards (eg Hornby) are still standards and just as relevant as, say, the 0 Gauge Guild's standards.
> A more likely reason is that in N. America scale modelling (as opposed > to toy trains) was more affordable, so that there were more people who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > standards that suited their customers, then the customers would do it > for them. That's simply not true. The only conflict, from the manufacturere, was Hornby vs Triang, and that died out long ago - eveyone since, in 00, has taken Hornby compatability as read. Certainly it's true that the fine-scale types wanted better realism, three-link couplings, Sprat & Winkle etc, but then that is because we are way ahead on desiring all of the layout to be realistic and to scale. I'll bet there are more model railway clubs per square mile, even now, in the UK than elsewhere, so interoperability has been just as big an issue here as elsewhere, the solution was simply more pragmatic. The market for kits has always been huge here, and kit builders typically have never used proprietry couplings - the fact that the two almost completely seperate markets co-exist simply underlines the size of the market place. We very definately have our standards, be they manufacturer based or otherwise. The fact that the NMRA don't acknowledge them isn't our problem, and someone trying impose irrelevant "standards" is wasting their time - we will pick and choose what we want, some ideas are good and worth having, others are not.
> And they did. Many companies that followed those standrads are still > with us, while the major player (Lionel) that didn't want to play in > that sandbox and went broke. The brand had enough cachet that eventually > it was bought by investors who saw a (mostly nostalgia-driven) niche > market for O gauge toy trains. Very true - every company that has tried to enter the UK 00 market without Hornby (or scale) comatability has failed - Trix etc.
<snip>
> HTH Cheers Richard
 Signature www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk I have become... comfortably numb
Jerry - 21 Aug 2008 10:27 GMT <snip>
> Very true - every company that has tried to enter the UK 00 market > without Hornby (or scale) comatability has failed - Trix etc. Come on, the problem wasn't non compatibility with the then Triang-Hornby range but a simple non compatibility with the 4mm scale/OO gauge standards (or even the 3.5/HO standards!). If Trix had produced their British outline models to a true 4mm scale then they would have competed with and taken market share from Triang-Hornby - for one thing dissatisfied the ex Hornby-Dublo market share would have bought into the brand as couplings were compatible out of the box [1], unlike the available ex HD models available under the Wren brand.
[1] which we did, preferring the coupling compatibility (with our existing, re-wheeled, HD 2 and 3rail stock) whilst ignoring/accepting the slight under-scale found with the Trix models - in hind-sight we now wish we had spent the money (on new Peco track and Trix loco stock) on more second hand HD 3rail, we would have got far more for our money and the stock would have kept their value...
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Wolf Kirchmeir - 21 Aug 2008 13:46 GMT > <snip> >> Very true - every company that has tried to enter the UK 00 market [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > stock) on more second hand HD 3rail, we would have got far more for > our money and the stock would have kept their value... First, I don't claim to have an exhaustive or definitive analysis of why this or that happened in different parts of the model train world. I merely notice _some_ of the factors that were and are at work. Just how significant they compared to the ones I ignore or don't know of is another issue.
I think Jerry's decisions and regrets illustrate why some standards are necessary. It also illustrates how random factors shift the market in different directions at different times. If Trix had gone 4mm on 16.5mm gauge, then it would have pushed Hornby into upgrading its scale fidelity sooner. I'm not knocking Hornby - I think they made a superb toy, with good overall scale proportions, and very good detail for a toy. The mechs were reliable, the product as whole was very sturdy, and all in all Hornby provided excellent play value. That's wasn't my point.
My point was that Hornby dominated the UK toy train market, because of the quality of its product. The UK scale modellers followed that de-facto commercial standard of 4mm scale on 16.5mm track, because it was easier and usually less costly to adapt Hornby product to scale than to build for 18.83mm gauge. Besides, the imagination is a powerful modelling tool: railway modelling is a matter of compromises, and once one has adopted a compromise, one no longer notices it.
In N. America the scale modellers early one insisted on true scale (as close as was practicable), and ignored (and many were noisily hostile to) the toy train product (except for those bits and pieces that could be adapted to scale by rewheeling, etc.) The NMRA was initially a predominantly O scale group, BTW, it wasn't until around 1950 that HO caught up to O scale in popularity. So the NMRA was formed more or less explicitly to counteract the dominance of Lionel's "O gauge".
From the 1960s onward, there has been a decline in the toy train market for children. We now have a large pool of adults who enjoy train models, in many ways, and on many levels. But overall, the demand for scale fidelity has increased, and mfrs must keep up with that demand to survive. One side effect has been that the quality of toy trains has changed, too: more scale fidelity, but not so much robustness. But the main effect has been an improvement in quality overall.
FWIW, I think Maerklin is in trouble because it thought it could hold onto its 3-rail AC market. But the days of a captive market are over. there will continue to be a "Maerklin system" market, but it will decline. I foresee a thriving but brief trade in insulated replacement wheels for Maerklin stock...
That's enough ruminations for today. ;-)
 Signature wolf k.
Jerry - 21 Aug 2008 14:26 GMT <snip>
> My point was that Hornby dominated the UK toy train market, because > of the quality of its product. (Triang-)Hornby dominated it for two reasons, first was price and, by the mid 60's, by being the only 4mm RTR UK model railway manufacture apart from G&R Wren - which was part owned by Lyon Bro's/Rovex anyway. Quality was never really a factor until Lima, Airfix and Palitoy entered the market from the mid to late 70's.
The UK scale modellers followed that
> de-facto commercial standard of 4mm scale on 16.5mm track, because > it was easier and usually less costly to adapt Hornby product to > scale than to build for 18.83mm gauge. Besides, the imagination is a > powerful modelling tool: railway modelling is a matter of > compromises, and once one has adopted a compromise, one no longer > notices it. I'm not sure if that is true, I suspect that if one looks back at the UK model railway magazines in the 1960's and early 70's (which there were three, RM, MRC and MRN) many of the layouts/models were to EM standards or at least fine-scale OO, by the late 70's into the 1980 P4 had made quite strong inroads, by the '90s P4 had in the main moved into a more niche position due to the vast improvements made in RTR models. Of course if I have miss understood you and the fact that you were only talking about the toy train-set market and not model railways...
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kim - 21 Aug 2008 18:37 GMT > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the mid 60's, by being the only 4mm RTR UK model railway manufacture > apart from G&R Wren - which was part owned by Lyon Bro's/Rovex anyway. You seem to have overlooked Jouef-Playcraft? Cheaper than Hornby and with a more scale-like appearance in certain repects.
(kim)
Jerry - 21 Aug 2008 18:45 GMT <snip>
> You seem to have overlooked Jouef-Playcraft? Cheaper than Hornby and > with a more scale-like appearance in certain repects. I think they fall into the same category as Trix, could have made an impact but (for various reasons) didn't.
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John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 11:55 GMT > You seem to have overlooked Jouef-Playcraft? Cheaper than Hornby and with > a more scale-like appearance in certain repects. Hmm, not quite sure where you get the 'more scale-like' from? They were pretty awful and performance matched their appearance.
John.
google@sheerstock.fsnet.co.uk - 25 Aug 2008 11:15 GMT > "kim" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John. I couldn't agree more. My first electric "train set" was Jouef.
Andrew
John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 11:53 GMT > Come on, the problem wasn't non compatibility with the then Triang-Hornby > range but a simple non compatibility with the 4mm scale/OO gauge standards True, Lima barged headlong into the UK market with some (pretty horrible) HO-scale offerings but quickly realised they were banging their head in a brick wall and switched to OO.
Raivarossi tried too ................... and flopped.
Fleischmann had a pretty half-hearted attempt at UK HO and had virtually no impact, although I believe their 'Warship' and Southern coaches (strange combination if I may say) were still available until very recently; but that may have simply been Fleischmann trying to sell off initial over-production.
John.
Jerry - 24 Aug 2008 13:41 GMT [ re British HO ]
> Fleischmann had a pretty half-hearted attempt at UK HO and had > virtually no impact, although I believe their 'Warship' and Southern > coaches (strange combination if I may say) were still available > until very recently; but that may have simply been Fleischmann > trying to sell off initial over-production. It's not at all strange if you take into consideration the pedigree of the BR(w) DH and especially the D800 series, and the fact that from the mid '60s they ran out of Waterloo with ex SR Bullied stock.
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John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 16:15 GMT > It's not at all strange if you take into consideration the pedigree of the > BR(w) DH and especially the D800 series, and the fact that from the mid > '60s they ran out of Waterloo with ex SR Bullied stock. Maybe, but think some BR Mk1 coaches (with all the livery options available) would have been a better choice.
Strange choice or not, they didn't sell ................... period!
John.
Jerry - 24 Aug 2008 16:30 GMT >> It's not at all strange if you take into consideration the pedigree >> of the BR(w) DH and especially the D800 series, and the fact that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Strange choice or not, they didn't sell ................... period! I wonder how many got sold in Germany though, to collectors and general (rather than model) railway enthusiasts?
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John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 18:27 GMT > I wonder how many got sold in Germany though, to collectors and general > (rather than model) railway enthusiasts? Clearly not enough if they were still for sale twenty-five years and more after initial release in 1977. As far as I can tell there was only one production run.
John.
Jerry - 24 Aug 2008 20:43 GMT >> I wonder how many got sold in Germany though, to collectors and >> general (rather than model) railway enthusiasts? > > Clearly not enough if they were still for sale twenty-five years and > more after initial release in 1977. As far as I can tell there was > only one production run. Are you sure on that date John, I'm sure that I can remember seeing the BR(w) Warship and coaches in a Fleischmann in the early '70s - I also remember both Jouef and Raivarossi, along with the for-mentioned Lima, releasing British outline RTR HO models in the late '70s.
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John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 22:30 GMT > Are you sure on that date John, I'm sure that I can remember seeing the > BR(w) Warship and coaches in a Fleischmann in the early '70s I thought they were 1977 and that seems to be reinforced by Ramsey's Guide.
John.
Christopher A. Lee - 24 Aug 2008 16:32 GMT >> Come on, the problem wasn't non compatibility with the then Triang-Hornby >> range but a simple non compatibility with the 4mm scale/OO gauge standards [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >John. All of these were doomed to failure because OO was so dominant.
It's a chicken and egg situation. There needs to be a big enough range available before people will buy into it.
As you say, the Lima was horrible.
It's been a long time since I saw them, but the Rivarossi(?) Royal Scot looked good to my untutored non-LMS eye, as did the Warship and Bulleids.
I don't know why they did that combination. Warships didn't run very long out of Waterloo. Mark ones in a couple of liveries would have made more sense.
MartinS - 24 Aug 2008 21:51 GMT > Hardly, we have standards and accpeted bodies in all scales, and have > had for years - the only exeptions being HO and the like which are > little used. De-facto standards (eg Hornby) are still standards and > just as relevant as, say, the 0 Gauge Guild's standards. Then why wouldn't my Hornby 2nd radius curved points accommodate my Hornby rolling stock without shimming check rails and adjusting wheel b-to-b?
 Signature Martin S.
Wolf Kirchmeir - 25 Aug 2008 01:42 GMT >> Hardly, we have standards and accpeted bodies in all scales, and have >> had for years - the only exeptions being HO and the like which are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then why wouldn't my Hornby 2nd radius curved points accommodate my Hornby > rolling stock without shimming check rails and adjusting wheel b-to-b? Probably because the points are new (current) and the rolling stock ids old - or vice versa.
Hornby don't/didn't have standards. One of the British MR mags I used to buy occasionally gave the wheel dimensions of all the rolling stock and locomotives it reviewed. I noticed that these dimensions varied not only between manufacturers, as might be expected, but also within a manufacturer's range. Weird.
 Signature wolf k.
MartinS - 25 Aug 2008 03:16 GMT >>> Hardly, we have standards and accpeted bodies in all scales, and >>> have had for years - the only exeptions being HO and the like which [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > not only between manufacturers, as might be expected, but also within > a manufacturer's range. Weird. It was newer wheels on old-design (but still sold) points.
I also had to do some surgery on my skirted A4 before it would take those points without the front pony wheels contacting the casing and derailing. This included shimming the check rails to slew the body over sooner.
 Signature Martin S.
Jerry - 25 Aug 2008 10:11 GMT <snip>
> I also had to do some surgery on my skirted A4 before it would take > those > points without the front pony wheels contacting the casing and > derailing. > This included shimming the check rails to slew the body over sooner. The lesson is not to mix toy train-set track radii with fine-scale models...
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kim - 20 Aug 2008 21:59 GMT >>> Problem solved. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yes, but make sure there is no mechanical problem. DCC cannot > compensate for a poor mechanism. Good point!
> Read the manual that came with your DCC system and the decoder, it > should have a list of the CVs implemented on that device, and their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > HTH Yes thanks. I've only got the basic controller which came with the E-Z command system. I might have to buy a new controller to be able to set CV levels.
(kim)
Nigel Cliffe - 21 Aug 2008 09:02 GMT > Yes thanks. I've only got the basic controller which came with the E-Z > command system. I might have to buy a new controller to be able to > set CV levels. You will need a new controller to alter any CV settings. However, as a basic controller for a simple layout, I think the EZ is well designed. Only serious complaint is that its 28 speed steps rather than 128, so one or two of my locos have distinct "notching" in speed changes.
Suggest two approaches; either: - a circa £100 system which includes decoder value read-back (eg. Digitrax Zephyr, NCE Power Cab, but not the Dynamis as that lacks read-back. I think the Hornby Elite has readback, but not certain). - stand alone programming tool, such as a Sprog, attached to your computer and use the JMRI/DecoderPro software.
If you are "computer minded", then JMRI is the way to go. You can attach JMRI to "normal" command stations, such as Digitrax, NCE, etc, but you need an adaptor component to do this, pushing the price higher.
- Nigel
 Signature Nigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
simon - 25 Aug 2008 23:52 GMT > Suggest two approaches; either: > - a circa £100 system which includes decoder value read-back (eg. > Digitrax Zephyr, NCE Power Cab, but not the Dynamis as that lacks > read-back. I think the Hornby Elite has readback, but not certain). ....
The Elite does have CV read and write capabilities.
Cheers, Simon
John Turner - 24 Aug 2008 11:58 GMT > Yes, but make sure there is no mechanical problem. DCC cannot compensate > for a poor mechanism. Indeed that's true but the Bachmann 25 is an extremely good mechanism, in this instance spoilt by either a poor or badly configured decoder.
I'd certainly go down the route of snipping the capacitors, and if that doesn't solve the slow speed running, then I'd hard-wire a decent decoder in place of the factory fitted abortion.
John.
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