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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2009Bachmann vs Hornby GWR pannier tanks
Well, I'd like a GWR pannier plus a couple of choclate and cream or maybe GWR brown coaches to go with ti, ca 1945048. Or else early BR, ca 1948-54. What for? I want to run them under the Christmas tree, along with nice little half-timbered cottages and a Cotswold stone station with a cream awning over the platform. And snow, of course. Anyhow, the websites indicate that both Bachmann and Hornby have suitable 0-6-0T locos and coaches. Would you give me your opinions and recommendations, please. Thanks. wolf k. >Well, I'd like a GWR pannier plus a couple of choclate and cream or >maybe GWR brown coaches to go with ti, ca 1945048. Or else early BR, ca [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Would you give me your opinions and recommendations, please. Don't get the Hornby pannier tank. It's more than 30 years old dating to before they started producing decent models. The Hornby B-set coaches are also old but they were originally from Airfix and the kind of models that caused Hornby to improve their own. They're still good, with flush windows, separate roof ventilators etc. The Bachmann pannier's body goes back almost to the same era as the B-set. But it originated with Mainline whose detail was far better than Hornby. It has an up to date chassis. >Thanks. > >wolf k. >> Well, I'd like a GWR pannier plus a couple of choclate and cream or >> maybe GWR brown coaches to go with ti, ca 1945048. Or else early BR, ca [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > B-set. But it originated with Mainline whose detail was far better > than Hornby. It has an up to date chassis. Thanks, useful information. wolf k. > Anyhow, the websites indicate that both Bachmann and Hornby have suitable > 0-6-0T locos and coaches. > > Would you give me your opinions and recommendations, please. Model or toy wanted? If you want a half-decent model go for the Bachmann model. John. > If you want a half-decent model go for the Bachmann model. Converseley, if you want something that can keep going after the cat's been sick on it and the baby's dunked it in juice, and something that won't shed detail bits when the stack of gifts falls onto it, get the Hornby model. PhilD -- <>< > Converseley, if you want something that can keep going after the cat's > been sick on it and the baby's dunked it in juice, and something that > won't shed detail bits when the stack of gifts falls onto it, get the > Hornby model. Judging by the number of failures we've had recently with Hornby products, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The latest issue is with class 31 diesels where the metal chassis appears to be disintigrating. John, > <phildea...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > John, My experience is that Hornby stuff is extremely rugged. However, I don't have much *really* modern (as in production date, not prototype) stuff, so perhaps things have changed of late. PhilD -- <>< >> Converseley, if you want something that can keep going after the cat's >> been sick on it and the baby's dunked it in juice, and something that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John, Do you have info to suggest its not just limited to some of a batch of class 31's ? Cheers, Simon > Do you have info to suggest its not just limited to some of a batch of > class 31's ? One customer bought three, all three failed. Not sure how widespread the problem is, but it looks like poor quality mazak - an issue Hornby have had problems with since the 1930s. It shouldn't be happening in the 21st century. John. >> Do you have info to suggest its not just limited to some of a batch of >> class 31's ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John. But is it just those class 31's or should we expect others ? Cheers, Simon > But is it just those class 31's or should we expect others ? Who knows Simon? Hornby claim it's not a widespread problem, but I find it odd that one customer has had three out of three locos fail. I've not checked my own class 31 as yet, but it will be investigated very soon. John. >> But is it just those class 31's or should we expect others ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John. Ah, am not expressing myself very well - meant is it just class 31's or have other locos classes been reported as well ? Cheers, Simon > Ah, am not expressing myself very well - meant is it just class 31's or > have other locos classes been reported as well ? Ah, right! The 'problem' is potentially great(er) in the class 31s because the thickness of the chassis (at the point of failure) has been reduced to an absolute minimum to accomodate the (gimmicky) opening cab doors. We're talking about a chassis thickness at the point of failure of maybe 3mm. I've no idea whether a poor quality mazak mix is likely to produce long term failure in other locos utilising the same alloy, but I doubt anyone could put their hand on their heart and say it won't happen. John. >> Ah, am not expressing myself very well - meant is it just class 31's or >> have other locos classes been reported as well ? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > failure in other locos utilising the same alloy, but I doubt anyone could > put their hand on their heart and say it won't happen. I know that some Heljan Class 47s have been suffering from disintegrating chassis as well, so much so that some have cracked open their bodies caused by the expansion of the chassis. Fred X >>> Ah, am not expressing myself very well - meant is it just class 31's or >>> have other locos classes been reported as well ? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Fred X It's an old problem and I don't know why the manufacturers didn't fix it decades ago. Hornby's otherwise excellent O-scale LMS Pacific more than seventy years ago, had problems where the mazak crumbled. For its day it was a remarkably good model. Since I got interested in O gauge in the early 1980s I've seen several examples in various states varying from as original (possibly restored) to decay. > It's an old problem and I don't know why the manufacturers didn't fix > it decades ago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1980s I've seen several examples in various states varying from as > original (possibly restored) to decay. It sounds like impurities in the Mazac. The operators of the melting pots for the Mazac often throw foil or the wire ties from the Mazac sacks in when they are melting the metal. Meccano had trouble with this before the war. Once they turned over to war production they had to meet higher standards for Mazac and after the was continued with it. There is quite a bit about this in the Hornby Dublo Companion book. Paul >> It's an old problem and I don't know why the manufacturers didn't fix >> it decades ago. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for Mazac and after the was continued with it. There is quite a bit about >this in the Hornby Dublo Companion book. OK. But if it's known it shouldn't happen any more. >Paul > It sounds like impurities in the Mazac. The operators of the melting pots > for the Mazac often throw foil or the wire ties from the Mazac sacks in > when they are melting the metal. Meccano had trouble with this before the > war. Once they turned over to war production they had to meet higher > standards for Mazac and after the was continued with it. There is quite a > bit about this in the Hornby Dublo Companion book. Then perhaps Bachmann and Hornby should specify "weapons-grade" mazak.  SignatureJane > "simon" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John. Presumably much the same problem as Bachmann had with the early batch of 'N' class locos that developed banana footplates :-/ . It will be interesting to see how widespread this problem is. > Presumably much the same problem as Bachmann had with the early batch > of 'N' class locos that developed banana footplates :-/ . It will be > interesting to see how widespread this problem is. Not come across that issue, but I guess similar problems are always going to arise with outsourced manufacture, unless those commissioning the work keep a tight control over production, and specifiy very clearly what materials are going to be used in the manufacturing process. John. > <airsmoot...@hotmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John. Yes indeed,although my day job has nowt to do with model railways I do have a lot of dealings with Chinese suppliers and specifying EXACTLY what you require in terms of raw materials and processes is definately step #1. Whether Hornby, Bachmann et al. have sufficient commercial leverage with their suppliers to be so strict I know not. >> <airsmoot...@hotmail.com> wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > step #1. Whether Hornby, Bachmann et al. have sufficient commercial > leverage with their suppliers to be so strict I know not. Bachmann is a Chinese company. >>> <airsmoot...@hotmail.com> wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bachmann is a Chinese company. Since 1981. "Bachmann Industries is a Bermuda registered Chinese owned company, globally head quartered in Hong Kong; specialising in model railroading. "Founded and with its North American headquarters based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Bachmann is today part of the Kader group, who model products are made at a Chinese Government joint-venture plant in Dongguan, China. Bachmann's brand is the largest seller, in terms of volume, of model trains in the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachmann_Industries SignatureMartin S. > > airsmoot...@hotmail.com wrote: > >>> <airsmoot...@hotmail.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yes I know Bachmann is part of Kader, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the UK design team have 100% control of what happens on the production line several thousand smiles away. [...] >>> Bachmann is a Chinese company. >> Since 1981. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > mean that the UK design team have 100% control of what happens on the > production line several thousand smiles away. There will be glitches in the mold making, since there4 is always some interpretation of drawings and specs. Pre-production samples are made to ensure that the molds are as close as possible to the designer's vision. But when it comes to production, Bachmann makes all their product in their own factory. They don't job out the zamac castings to back-alley shops. cheers, wolf k. > There will be glitches in the mold making, since there4 is always some > interpretation of drawings and specs. Pre-production samples are made to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > wolf k. Which is now, as of about 6 months or so ago, the same factory that Hornby stuff is made in. So Hornby are now "perfect" too! Excellent, that's cleared that up! Cheers Richard SignatureI have become...............comfortably numb >> There will be glitches in the mold making, since there4 is always some >> interpretation of drawings and specs. Pre-production samples are made to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Cheers > Richard Would be tempted to say thats a bit sarcastic, but unless Wolf has specific info on the supplier/factory it does seem someone is being a bit of an unfair hornby basher. These things happen to all companies at some time or other, the important thing is how they deal with it - but of course, lets wait for their investigations to be completed before having an opinion. Cheers, Simon >>> There will be glitches in the mold making, since there4 is always some >>> interpretation of drawings and specs. Pre-production samples are made to [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Cheers, > Simon Well, if Hornby's product is in fact made in the factory as Bachmann's own stuff, then there should be no problem with recently made product. But it's not easy to determine when something was made. There can be considerable lag time between the actual start of a production run and the arrival of the product on YFHS's shelves. IOW, just because Hornby's 31 class diesels arrived in the shops within the last 6 months doesn't mean they were made in Bachmann's factory. You'd have to ask Hornby about that. They might tell you. That being said, if the mfr doesn't actually make their own alloys, they are at the mercy of the supplier's quality control, and bad stuff will get through even with the best QC protocols. Nothing's perfect in this world. "There is a crack in everything..." cheers, wolf k. >>>> There will be glitches in the mold making, since there4 is always some >>>> interpretation of drawings and specs. Pre-production samples are made to [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >mean they were made in Bachmann's factory. You'd have to ask Hornby >about that. They might tell you. Hornby made two pannier tanks. Both of which were crude models with solid moulded handrails, no daylight under the boiler etc. Basically ancient Triang technology. The tooling for the one with a closed cab was altered to make Duck from the Thomas stories. They continued making the open cab version but it is not up to the standards of the newer models. Bachmann's pannier tank dates from after the manufacturers started making more accurate models. They acquired it from Mainline and gave it an improved mechanism. The best of Mainline's technology without their poor chassis. >That being said, if the mfr doesn't actually make their own alloys, they >are at the mercy of the supplier's quality control, and bad stuff will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >wolf k. > Which is now, as of about 6 months or so ago, the same factory that > Hornby stuff is made in. So Hornby are now "perfect" too! Excellent, > that's cleared that up! That's not quite true, Hornby is made in the old Sander Kan factory, whilst the bulk of Bachmann is produced in Kader's original factory. I've no idea whether either or both out-source their mazak castings. John. >"Founded and with its North American headquarters based in Philadelphia, >Pennsylvania, Note to self: see if I can fit in a factory visit when in Philly in August. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Railway >> "Founded and with its North American headquarters based in Philadelphia, >> Pennsylvania, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Guy No North American factory. wolf k. >> Anyhow, the websites indicate that both Bachmann and Hornby have suitable >> 0-6-0T locos and coaches. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John. Model, but it will be used for only a couple of weeks or so, then packed away for next year. John, e-mail me off line please, to wekirch at-sign sympatico fullstop ca. I lost your e-mail address (along with a pile of other stuff) during a major virus infection episode. thanks, wolf k. |
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