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Model Forum / General / Railroads / July 2009



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Kadee Magnets

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Dobbin - 23 Jul 2009 23:57 GMT
Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
appear expensive.
Is there a cheaper way?

TIA
Dobbin
Wolf K - 24 Jul 2009 00:36 GMT
> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
> appear expensive.
> Is there a cheaper way?
>
> TIA
> Dobbin

They are magnetised crosswise. This makes them "special production."
Bachmann also offers them, somewhat cheaper. Magnetic latch magnets will
work as under-track magnets, but you don't get as long an uncoupling
ramp as with Kadees.

Cheers,
wolf k.
Dragon Heart - 24 Jul 2009 02:28 GMT
> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
> appear expensive.
> Is there a cheaper way?

Take care if you get magnets made of neodymium-iron-boron, which are
shiny & silver in colour,  and are near anyone with a pacemaker or
implanted heart device as they can destabilise them !!!!!!!

Chris
Jeff - 24 Jul 2009 09:45 GMT
>> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
>> appear expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Chris

It is nothing to do with the material that the magnet it is to do with the
intensity of the magnetic field and the proximity of the magnet.
Any of the rare earth magnets may well produce a high enough field if you
put them in your shirt pocket!.

Jeff
Keith W - 24 Jul 2009 14:39 GMT
>>> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
>>> appear expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Any of the rare earth magnets may well produce a high enough field if you
> put them in your shirt pocket!.

Just another form of uncoupling I suppose.   ;o)
Signature

Keith W
Sunbury on Thames
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living)

Nigel Cliffe - 24 Jul 2009 07:58 GMT
> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
> appear expensive.
> Is there a cheaper way?

Long-ways pole rather than cross-ways.

I've used the O-gauge ones cut in half underneath the trackbed of N track
very successfully.  I've also mounted them on hinges to swing away the
magnet in situations where accidental uncoupling was happening (pulling a
train very slowly onto a sharp curve).

I'm sure its possible to do them cheaper with modern rare-earth magnets and
a few bits of steel to create suitable poles and magnetic shunts.  But its
not on the first sheet of "experiments I ought to try out", so someone else
will have to report back on how to do it.

- Nigel

Signature

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Keith W - 24 Jul 2009 14:43 GMT
>> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
>> appear expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> magnet in situations where accidental uncoupling was happening (pulling a
> train very slowly onto a sharp curve).
<snip>

I have been tinkering with a number of different uncoupling methods in N
gauge with a marked absence of success.    You wouldn't care to go into more
detail would you.
Signature

Keith W
Sunbury on Thames
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living)

Nigel Cliffe - 24 Jul 2009 15:01 GMT
>>> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
>>> appear expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> in N gauge with a marked absence of success.    You wouldn't care to
> go into more detail would you.

You need my Farish 04 :-)   DCC controlled couplers on the loco; press the
uncouple button on the handset and sit back and watch the loco do the rest.
http://nigelcliffe.blogspot.com and wade around looking for videos and other
information.

On the Kadee/Microtrains couplers;  The O gauge magnets, cut in half, were
put in a hole in the baseboard, the track supported by either thick card or
very thin ply.  The hinges were either horizontal or vertical, depending on
position, doesn't matter which is used, just swing the magnet out of
position when not required, swing back when it is needed.   The magnets will
cut with a hacksaw if done slowly.  What more is there to say ?

- Nigel

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Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Keith W - 25 Jul 2009 11:33 GMT
>>>> Is there anything special about the Kadee uncoupling magnets, they
>>>> appear expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> magnets will cut with a hacksaw if done slowly.  What more is there to say
> ?

Thanks Nigel.   I shall indeed follow your link.
Signature

Keith W
Sunbury on Thames

Jim Guthrie - 26 Jul 2009 07:54 GMT
Keith,

>I have been tinkering with a number of different uncoupling methods in N
>gauge with a marked absence of success.    You wouldn't care to go into more
>detail would you.

I've also been messing around with remote uncoupling MT couplers in N
scale.   I've not really had much success with permanent magnets,
whether that has been the MT products or making up magnets using
various combinations of small button magnets.  

The main problem has been involuntary uncoupling since the lighter N
scale stock can start bouncing when being pulled and allow enough
slack for the couplings to operate.  I haven't tried Nigel's hinged
magnet setup to overcome the problem.

Another problem I got with my US bogie stock was that the strength of
the magnets necessary to operate all the coupler types I have - MT,
Accumate and McHenry - would sometimes pull truck mounted couplings
down as well as across,  and derail the truck.

I've now gone for electro-magnetic operation and I'm using the guts of
old Carpenter relays to provide the bits.  The Carpenter relays have a
U shaped pole piece with a coil on each leg.  The width across the
pole piece ends is just about right for N scale.   The considerations
I have with this system is that the flux generated by the relays is
just about sufficient and will only operate well made MT couplers and
the new McHenry N scale couplers (on new Athearn stock).  I've given
up trying to make Accumates work well since their centring springs are
quite stiff and require a lot of magnetic oomph to get them to operate
reliably.  I'm also changing out all the truck mounted couplers to
body mount MT 1015s where I can to get rid of the Accumates on Atlas
stock.    I have to assemble the 1015s quite carefully with plenty of
burnishing and graphite to make sure the work well.  ready built MT
couplers work well,  but are a bit pricier.

I use a 50V supply to operate the relay coils (their design voltage)
and I've rigged up a simple capacitor discharge system to give a 60+V
pulse at the start to get things moving.

I've actually been quite surprised at how difficult it has been to get
a reliable working remote system with N scale knuckles.  I'm building
a switching layout and progress on the track laying has been held up
for a long time until I thought I had cracked the coupler operation.
At present, I think I have got a working system.  I can see why a lot
of people recommend using manual methods with toothpicks (or whatever)
but I didn't want to use manual methods on my layout.

Jim.
Nigel Cliffe - 26 Jul 2009 13:15 GMT
>> I have been tinkering with a number of different uncoupling methods
>> in N gauge with a marked absence of success.    You wouldn't care to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> slack for the couplings to operate.  I haven't tried Nigel's hinged
> magnet setup to overcome the problem.

I started using hinged/pivoted magnets to overcome the problems you report !

One other trick which may be worth exploiting if using DCC....
The chips from Zimo, CT and the new "+" models from Lenz support
"uncoupling".  Whilst meant for DCC controlled couplings (eg. Krois, or the
ones I keep building), the movement features alone for the loco will give a
function key which will produce the "Kadee Shuffle" to uncouple and then
re-engage in "propelling" mode.

- Nigel

Signature

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Jim Guthrie - 26 Jul 2009 23:30 GMT
Nigel,

>> The main problem has been involuntary uncoupling since the lighter N
>> scale stock can start bouncing when being pulled and allow enough
>> slack for the couplings to operate.  I haven't tried Nigel's hinged
>> magnet setup to overcome the problem.
>
>I started using hinged/pivoted magnets to overcome the problems you report !

I didn't tell the whole story :-)

I experimented with several styles of magnets,  including the official
MT one,  and I couldn't get reliable uncoupling.  I wanted the magnets
completely hidden underneath the track and I couldn't seem to get
anything to work reliably with them under the sleepers - even thin PCB
sleepers.   So I didn't proceed further with the hinge idea.

My Carpenter relay guts seem to work quite well but are quite
sensitive to the quality of the knuckle and I can only reckon on good
operation with MT and McHenry couplers and carefully built MT coupler
kits.     The shape of the magnetic field seems to suit the couplers
and I don't seem to get problems with a vertical component to the
coupler movement,  which was my main problem with permanent magnets
which seemed to pull couplers down as well as across and cause
derailments.

I also tried some of the MT between rails magnets on a shunting plank
setup,  and they were a disaster since they pulled the couplings down
till the operating arms stuck to the magnets with bogie mounted
couplers.  I might try them again with body mounted couplers to see if
the problem still exists with them.

Jim.
Nigel Cliffe - 27 Jul 2009 09:06 GMT
>>> The main problem has been involuntary uncoupling since the lighter N
>>> scale stock can start bouncing when being pulled and allow enough
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> anything to work reliably with them under the sleepers - even thin PCB
> sleepers.   So I didn't proceed further with the hinge idea.

If wanting to experiment further, try the O gauge Kadee magnets below
sleepers.  In my case the arrangement is:
Hinge, backing plate, magnet, card (or thin ply), Peco Code 55 N gauge.  The
magnets also work fine under Peco turnouts (in the blade area, not the
crossing V!).  In most cases I cut the O gauge magnet and backing plate in
half.  (I'd have to dig around under the layout to work out which way the
cuts went !).

I have found the MT N magnets to be troublesome, having most of the problems
you report.

> coupler movement,  which was my main problem with permanent magnets
> which seemed to pull couplers down as well as across and cause
> derailments.

I do get some vertical pull, but it only affects one vehicle where the
coupling body isn't properly glued into its housing, so the coupling can
pivot downwards.   Easily fixed with some superglue !

- Nigel

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Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 
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