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Model Forum / General / Railroads / August 2009



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Analogue controllers?

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Andy Hewitt - 22 Aug 2009 11:36 GMT
It's been a while, but I've been slowly building the layout nonetheless.

I'm now fixing and powering the track, and have the up/down lines
finished, and now working on the sidings/goods yard.

I made a control board up myself, using bits of wood and hardboard from
the shed, and mounted two of the late Hornby controllers onto it, which
power the two main line tracks (by way of my isolating switches).

Now I have the need to power the two sidings, which, being a small
layout, don't need to supply copious amounts of oomph. Budget is also a
consideration too, so I'm looking mostly at the s/h stuff on eBay.

So far I'm down to an old dual channel H&M, or another pair of late type
Hornby ones. I know how the Hornby ones work, and seem to work well
enough for my layout, but are a little bit inconsistent at low speeds. I
do have an old Airfix controller, which looks identical to the H&M
units, but it is useless at low speeds, as it bungs out far too much
power.

Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
units at this time).

Cheers.

Signature

Andy Hewitt
<http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

John Turner - 22 Aug 2009 13:36 GMT
> Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
> units at this time).

Take a look at the Gaugemaster 'Combi' it's a Hornby style  wall-mount
transformer and separate controller, but these are much better quality, and
not much more expensive than the Hornby transet efforts.

John.
Christopher A. Lee - 22 Aug 2009 16:09 GMT
>It's been a while, but I've been slowly building the layout nonetheless.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
>units at this time).

The reason the ones you mention are poor at low speeds, is that they
are simple variable resistance units.

Which means that when you turn the knob you increase both current and
voltage.

But it takes more current to start than to keep it running, and the
voltage controls the speed.

So that by the time you have reached enough current you already have a
fairly high voltage, so the engine runs away like a scalded cat.

Modern electronic controllers use a voltage regulator chip, so you get
full current at all voltages.

You can also get good control from a single transistor and a variable
resistor. Obviously it needs a transformer, a rectifier and a
smoothing capacitor as well. A friend of my father's made one for us
when I was a boy. So if you know somebody who is an electronics nerd
(not a computer nerd) he might be able to help. There are books and
magazines on model railway electronics which give circuits like this,
including the exact components.

It's the sort of thing Tandy (Radio Shack) shops were perfect for.

Alternatively, before the days of this kind of controller, they used
variable transformers. Hammant and Morgan used to make one called the
Safety Minor - I had one more than 40 years ago. They used the same
system in the later versions of their Powermaster.

You might be able to get one of these at a swapmeet or on ebay. They
are still very good but out of fashion.

These worked by sliding a wiper along the secondary winding of a
transformer. So there wasn't a resistor involved to reduce current.

I believe they stressed the safety part because traditional variacs
were auto-transformers having just one winding and weren't really safe
enough for model railway use.

My O-gauge club (Kingston, in up-state New York) uses very ancient
variable transformer controllers which give excellent low speed
performance. It's a no-name setup built by a member decades ago and
used on club night ever since.

If you see a Hammant and Morgan Powermaster for sale, make sure it's
the variable transformer not the earlier resistance kind. But beware,
unless the seller actually used it he might not know.

>Cheers.
Nigel Cliffe - 22 Aug 2009 17:39 GMT
> Now I have the need to power the two sidings, which, being a small
> layout, don't need to supply copious amounts of oomph. Budget is also
> a consideration too, so I'm looking mostly at the s/h stuff on eBay.
>
> Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
> units at this time).

Build your own ?  The circuit diagram for one of the Gaugemasters is around
publically somewhere and is pretty trivial to make.

Or there is the "cool crawler" which is a US design which can be found if
you search the internet.  I've made one, needs only vero board and a
multi-meter to check continuity as you build it. Its a nice controller for
OO and probably most N RTR stuff.  I built a version with a base unit which
remembers the last setting of the handset if the handset is unplugged and
moved to another position on the layout, and the handsets were built with
both a speed control and an "inertia" knob to give some acceleration and
braking delay, probably cost under £20.

Both need about 16v AC which an old H&M will give on its auxillary output.

- Nigel

Signature

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Christopher A. Lee - 22 Aug 2009 22:08 GMT
>> Now I have the need to power the two sidings, which, being a small
>> layout, don't need to supply copious amounts of oomph. Budget is also
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>both a speed control and an "inertia" knob to give some acceleration and
>braking delay, probably cost under £20.

It's the "cooler crawler". I know a few people who havemade them.

>Both need about 16v AC which an old H&M will give on its auxillary output.
>
>- Nigel
Fred X - 22 Aug 2009 19:14 GMT
> It's been a while, but I've been slowly building the layout nonetheless.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Cheers.

I'd recommend a Gaugemaster Combi as John mentioned or if you are on
a really tight budget, buy one of those controllers that Bachmann/Farish
supply with their train sets as they are suprisingly good. You can buy
them for about £10-15 on Ebay.

Fred X
Andy Hewitt - 22 Aug 2009 20:36 GMT
[..]
> > Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
> > units at this time).
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> supply with their train sets as they are suprisingly good. You can buy
> them for about £10-15 on Ebay.

I have one of the Farish controllers, but it seems to have died, but
yes, it was much better for the low speed stuff, while it worked.

Thanks to all that responded, pretty much the answers I was expecting
really - spend more!

Signature

Andy Hewitt
<http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

simon - 22 Aug 2009 21:31 GMT
> [..]
>> > Recommendations? (and no, I can't afford the HM2000, or Gaugemaster
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Thanks to all that responded, pretty much the answers I was expecting
> really - spend more!

one question, its for 2 sidings and if understand correctly you want 2
controllers or dual output. However if you only intend to run a train on one
siding at a time then you only need one controller/output and switches.

Cheers,
Simon
Andy Hewitt - 22 Aug 2009 22:26 GMT
[..]
> >> I'd recommend a Gaugemaster Combi as John mentioned or if you are on
> >> a really tight budget, buy one of those controllers that Bachmann/Farish
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> controllers or dual output. However if you only intend to run a train on one
> siding at a time then you only need one controller/output and switches.

Well, if it's just me using the layout, then of course only one
controller is needed. However, if someone wants to join in with the fun,
then a second controller would be handy.

My current track plan has the ability to run trains simultaneously on
the main lines, and on both sidings.

Of course I could easily run off one controller for now, and join the
supplies, and add another controller later.

Signature

Andy Hewitt
<http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

Steve Oz - 24 Aug 2009 07:45 GMT
> [..]
> > >> I'd recommend a Gaugemaster Combi as John mentioned or if you are on
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Andy Hewitt
> <http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

Or else welcome to Cab Control, whereby any controller can control any
section of track. Juat need a few DPDT switches (or SPDT if you use
common rail which I do not recommend :-) ).

Have a look at:

http://rail.felgall.com/cc.htm

to see what I mean.

Steve
John Dennis - 24 Aug 2009 10:10 GMT
> > [..]
> > > >> I'd recommend a Gaugemaster Combi as John mentioned or if you are on
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> section of track. Juat need a few DPDT switches (or SPDT if you use
> common rail which I do not recommend :-) ).

Why don't you like common rail? It has always worked well for me, back
in the days when I ran DC as opposed to DCC.

John
John Turner - 24 Aug 2009 11:23 GMT
> Why don't you like common rail? It has always worked well for me, back
> in the days when I ran DC as opposed to DCC.

I don't understand that either - common return always work fine for me.

John.
Andy Hewitt - 24 Aug 2009 13:37 GMT
> > Why don't you like common rail? It has always worked well for me, back
> > in the days when I ran DC as opposed to DCC.
>
> I don't understand that either - common return always work fine for me.

Yes, I am using a common return too. I have looked at the crossover
switching setup but it's far too elaborate for the layout I'm running. I
have done some testing, and I find I can manage the crossovers using
separate controllers quite well.

The only real issue seems to be if I accidentally switch them in
opposite directions, but the joins are double insulated, so there's not
too much worry.

My main lines are sorted really, it's just the sidings I need to control
now. I think the suggestion that I may not need to bother with two
controllers my be the best anyway, I can make the wiring so I can split
them later if I need to.

Signature

Andy Hewitt
<http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

simon - 24 Aug 2009 21:12 GMT
>> > Why don't you like common rail? It has always worked well for me, back
>> > in the days when I ran DC as opposed to DCC.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> controllers my be the best anyway, I can make the wiring so I can split
> them later if I need to.

Not saying that people with fancy or expensive controllers are doing
anything wrong - each to his/her own. However the average punter is unlikely
to notice or use the extra features. Best to stick with a basic guagemaster
with fewer things to go wrong. There was a period last year when 2nd hand
ones were flooding the market - perhaps as people converted to DCC. would
suggest just get one for now and if you think a second would be handy then
wait till see one at a good price.
If you have 2 persons controlling then can be better to have 2 seperate
controllers - all a question of space/convenience really.

Cheers,
Simon
Andy Hewitt - 24 Aug 2009 23:43 GMT
[..]
> Not saying that people with fancy or expensive controllers are doing
> anything wrong - each to his/her own.

Absolutely, I find that's the whole fun in the hobby, there's not
necessarily only one way to do things, and each of us has different
priorities.

> However the average punter is unlikely
> to notice or use the extra features. Best to stick with a basic guagemaster
> with fewer things to go wrong. There was a period last year when 2nd hand
> ones were flooding the market - perhaps as people converted to DCC. would
> suggest just get one for now and if you think a second would be handy then
> wait till see one at a good price.

That's one of the reasons I went for analogue, the amount of s/h stuff
available is pretty good. I also find I enjoy working out the circuits,
building it all up, and manually controlling it all.

> If you have 2 persons controlling then can be better to have 2 seperate
> controllers - all a question of space/convenience really.

Space is OK, I can mount two small controllers, or a larger dual one,
fairly easily at the side of the control hatch.

Signature

Andy Hewitt
<http://web.me.com/andrewhewitt1/>

Steve Oz - 25 Aug 2009 08:12 GMT
> "John Dennis"  wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> John.

Firstly notice the smiley - tongue definitely in cheek, as normally
any mention of common rail wiring starts a blizzard of replies,
suggestions and rebuttals. The old saw about separate transformers is
dragged out etc etc etc. Any competent or reasonably experienced
modeller will have no difficulty with it, but I avoid all thqt stuff
and have been DCC'd since 1994.

Steve
John Dennis - 25 Aug 2009 11:27 GMT
> > "John Dennis"  wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Steve

Ah, I missed the significance of the smiley. You were well ahead of
me;  I only converted to DCC in early 2000. But that was early enough
so that when we exhibited at Easter that year we were the only layout
running DCC.

John
 
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