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Model Forum / General / Railroads / February 2010



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Double track geometry

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Frank Erskine - 22 Feb 2010 01:08 GMT
What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
flange point, or the outer edge of each track?

I'm sure I had a proper drawing of this somewhere, but can't put my
hands on it at the mo... :-(

I have an idea that in such as N scale, this is increased a bit - if
so, by how much?  

TIA...

Signature

Frank Erskine
Sunderland

Wolf K - 22 Feb 2010 04:20 GMT
> What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
> is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> TIA...

Actually, track spacing is measured centre to centre; see excerpt from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_track below.

For model railways, the spacing has to be wide enough to prevent passing
trains from sideswiping each other. Space the tracks for the longest
rolling stock. In N it should be 1" or more centre to centre. You can
make a gauge for rail-to-rail spacing by laying down a couple of pieces
of track to the desired spacing, and cutting slots in a piece of 2mm
plastic to accommodate the inner rails. You may as well make one for
straight track and one (or more) for curved track. You can make four
gauges on piece of plastic, after all.

If you want prototypical accuracy, keep in mind that track spacing
varies by prototype, era, type of line, traffic, etc. IOW, if it looks
right, it is right.

HTH
wolf k.

Excerpt from Wiki article:

Track centres

The distance between the track centres makes a difference in cost and
performance of a double track line. The track centres can be as narrow
and as cheap as possible, but maintenance must be done on the side.
Signals for bi-directional working cannot be mounted between the tracks
so must be mounted on the 'wrong' side of the line or on expensive
signal bridges. Very narrow track centres are also undesirable for high
speeds, as pressure waves knock each other as high speed trains pass.

Narrow track centres might be 4 m or less. Narrow track centres may have
to be widened on sharp curves to allow for long rail vehicles following
the arc of the curve, and this increases a surveyor's workload. Widening
a track centre to 5 m or so suits high speed trains passing each other,
and eliminates the need to widen the centres on sharp curves. Increasing
width of track centres of 6 m or more makes it much easier to mount
signals and overhead wiring structures.

Very wide centres at major bridges can have military value. It also
makes it harder for rogue ships and barges knocking out both bridges in
the same accident.
Frank Erskine - 22 Feb 2010 08:26 GMT
>> What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
>> is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>HTH
>wolf k.

Many thanks -

Signature

Frank Erskine

manatbandq@hotmail.com - 22 Feb 2010 11:56 GMT
> > What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
> > is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Actually, track spacing is measured centre to centre;

But not when referring to "the 6 foot" which is measured rail to rail.

Whether it's inner or outer face of the rail is largely immaterial, an
inch or two in seventy-two.

The "6 foot" varied so shouldn't be taken as an absolute.

How much you need to increrase the spacing of model track (any gauge
or scale) depends on how tight your curves are.

MBQ
Wolf K - 22 Feb 2010 13:59 GMT
>>> What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
>>> is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> But not when referring to "the 6 foot" which is measured rail to rail.

True, if you're referring to the ganger's gauges. But the tracks are
surveyed and laid out along centre lines.

[...]
wolf k.
Greg.Procter - 22 Feb 2010 20:06 GMT
> What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
> is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> TIA...

The two relevant dimensions are "the four foot way" and the "six foot way".
The first is the gauge, which shows how wooley both those terms are.
Add the two together as they stand and you'd get a ten foot center to  
center
dimension between tracks, which would barely be workable. I'm sure the  
terms
originated back in the early years of railways when locomotives and rolling
stock were smaller and track spacing would have widened since.
The minimum spacing would allow two trains to pass with a man standing
between the tracks.
Of course once prototype double track has been laid and bridges, platforms,
crossovers etc  laid it would take an awful lot of work and materials to
relay them at a wider spacing,. With that in mind, the spacing on any given
piece of track is probably as laid in pre-grouping era. 12 or 13 feet would
probably be about right. Tracks laid for modern high speed trains would be
several feet wider.

On model curves the rolling stock swings at the outer corners and inside
center so tracks need wider spacing. The sharper the curves and the longer
the rolling stock, the further the swing will be so the wider the track
spacing required.
Generally steam locomotive models will extend further outside the curve
than Diseasals etc.

Nodel track spacing is a practical compromise that can't be avoided.
Narrowed gauge and increased spacing will always look wrong!

Greg.P.
StuartJ - 23 Feb 2010 22:48 GMT
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:08:56 +1300, Frank Erskine  
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> probably be about right. Tracks laid for modern high speed trains would be
> several feet wider.

No - the six foot is exactly that. Standard double track spacing on
straights is 11' 2" : 4' 8.5" plus twice the rail thickness (nominal
2.75") plus six feet. Source: Ministry of Transport Requirements -
1950 edition. The only historic routes where there has been any
substantial increase on this are ex-broad gauge, where the spacing
between platforms opens out by an extra 4' 7".

You are right that modern high speed lines have a wider spacing.

Stuart J
Frank Erskine - 24 Feb 2010 01:35 GMT
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:08:56 +1300, Frank Erskine  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>You are right that modern high speed lines have a wider spacing.

Many thanks to all for their very helpful comments.  It seems that
there's scope (and sometimes necessity!) for a measure (!) of
modeller's licence, especially on tight bends, but it's also nice to
know what the 'official' dimensions are.

Regards -
Signature

Frank Erskine
Sunderland

simon - 24 Feb 2010 11:12 GMT
>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:08:56 +1300, Frank Erskine
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Regards -

As a matter of interest were things different on the GWR with the reduction
of guage from broad to standard. Did they use any of the extra space between
tracks or on one or both sides. Did they reduce the total width immediately
or over time ?

Then theres the Great Central, wasnt that different as it was built to
continental loading guage ?

Cheers,
Simon
Mike Smith - 24 Feb 2010 14:15 GMT
>>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:08:56 +1300, Frank Erskine
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> Cheers,
> Simon

Just to obfuscate I was recently directed to a site on Belgian ferry wagons
(they provided the bulk of the stock for the GE/LNER ferry service), all of
which appear to be marked 'not to travel on the Met rly', presumably a
loading gauge issue.

Regards

Mike
manatbandq@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2010 15:37 GMT
> > On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:08:56 +1300, Frank Erskine  
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> 2.75") plus six feet. Source: Ministry of Transport Requirements -
> 1950 edition.

It may be exactly 6' where it's 6', IYSWIM, and 6' may have been
chosen as a standard, but it wasn't always 6' and didn't suddenly
become so overnight.

MBQ
furnessvale - 24 Feb 2010 15:27 GMT
On Feb 22, 1:08�am, Frank Erskine <frank.ersk...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> What is the actual "six foot" spacing between double track lines, and
> is it measured between the inner faces of each track i.e. at the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have an idea that in such as N scale, this is increased a bit - if
> so, by how much? �

Others have given comprehensive replies but, as interesting aside, the
prototype 6ft can also be considerably smaller.  The tightest I ever
worked on as an engineer was the Maryport and Carlisle railway where,
at several overbridges, the 6ft came down to an actual 4ft 8ins!

For this reason, there was a 20mph speed restriction through those
bridges to reduce swaying and all units working that line had to have
bars on the opening windows.

George
Andrew Robert Breen - 24 Feb 2010 15:55 GMT
>On Feb 22, 1:08�am, Frank Erskine <frank.ersk...@btinternet.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>worked on as an engineer was the Maryport and Carlisle railway where,
>at several overbridges, the 6ft came down to an actual 4ft 8ins!

Both the Newcastle and Carlisle and the Maryport and Carlisle were
originally built with 4'8" between the track-pairs. I'm not sure if the
N&C was eased in places at any stage, but the spacing certainly looks
significantly closer than "normal" from the train window. you can
certainly tell the difference coming off the Dunston line onto the
original N&C alignment.

Signature

Andy Breen ~     Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
       
        "Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

Greg.Procter - 24 Feb 2010 20:13 GMT
> In article  
> <985a8f31-f179-4035-a0e6-56f37661ead3@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> certainly tell the difference coming off the Dunston line onto the
> original N&C alignment.

In 4mm scale that's 40mm spacing or in HO 34.5mm! =8^O

I use 46mm (4 metre) spacing on my HO European layout - it considerably
shortens crossovers / allows larger radii turnouts and allows an extra
track on 305mm/1' wide shelves. Trimming Peco tunouts to such widths is
simple with a Dremel except that you need a half length fishplate/rail
joiner because you remove one set of sleeper fasters beyond the frog.

New Zealand Railways spacing was 11' (1870 standard) and 12' (1880s on)
which I guess gave room for an arm waved from a window.

Greg.P.
NZ
Jim Guthrie - 24 Feb 2010 21:49 GMT
Andrew,

>Both the Newcastle and Carlisle and the Maryport and Carlisle were
>originally built with 4'8" between the track-pairs. I'm not sure if the
>N&C was eased in places at any stage, but the spacing certainly looks
>significantly closer than "normal" from the train window. you can
>certainly tell the difference coming off the Dunston line onto the
>original N&C alignment.

In a book I've got on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway,  it states
the tracks were laid initially with 4' 8" between the inner rails of
the double track so that trains with wide loads could go down the
middle of the double tracks.  I don't know if this ever happened since
such a train would render the whole track unusable by other trains
coming in the other direction.

The actual running lines were also laid to 4' 8" and opened out by the
half inch after running experience.   I think the same reason accounts
for the odd quarter inch in Brunel's broad gauge.

Jim.
 
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