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Model Forum / General / Railroads / March 2010Opinions please
What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" Train Pack"? I'm particularly interested in pre-1900 prototypes, but I've only seen pictures of this model. How would it compare with the level of detail on e.g. http://tinyurl.com/trix22184 that I have one of? >What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" >Train Pack"? It's the old Triang Lord Of The Isles. The model is nearly 50 years old. Just look at the horrible things they have done to the outside frames to let the bogie swing on curves, and all the daylight where you shouldn't see any. There's no real reason not to do an up-to-date version. Even the carriages are nearly 30 years old. If you want a good model of an old engine the MRM's City of Truro commissioned from Bachmann is orders of magnitude better, although it is not in the original 1904 condition (the most obvious thing was that it was built without top feed, and had a slightly shorter smokebox because it wan't superheated). If Bachmann can get an engine with the same outside framing right apart from being a 4-4-0 instead of a 4-2-2, why can't Hornby? http://www.nrmshop.co.uk/models/product/276887.html >I'm particularly interested in pre-1900 prototypes, but I've only seen >pictures of this model. > >How would it compare with the level of detail on e.g. http://tinyurl.com/trix22184 >that I have one of? No contest. >> What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" >> Train Pack"? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If Bachmann can get an engine with the same outside framing right > apart from being a 4-4-0 instead of a 4-2-2, why can't Hornby? Do you want it to be able to negotiate flyovers with supports built from blocks and books or would you be satisfied with one that needs carefully laid gradients? Hornby considered their market to be toy trains, Bachmann has aimed at modellers. I'm sure it was 50 years ago I wanted a Tri-ang clerestory compartment coach. Regards, Greg.P. >>> What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" >>> Train Pack"? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >I'm sure it was 50 years ago I wanted a Tri-ang clerestory compartment >coach. They're not the Triang Clerestories but the longer ones Hornby introduced in the early 1980s, with painted-on paneling not moulded. Windows weren't flush either. >Regards, >Greg.P. > They're not the Triang Clerestories but the longer ones Hornby > introduced in the early 1980s, with painted-on paneling not moulded. > Windows weren't flush either. The only thing you could say was an improvement over the Tri-ang clerestories was that the Hornby ones were 'scale length', but in virtually every other respect the 1950's Tri-ang versions were nicer and certainly far better for 'kit-bashing'. John. >> They're not the Triang Clerestories but the longer ones Hornby >> introduced in the early 1980s, with painted-on paneling not moulded. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >every other respect the 1950's Tri-ang versions were nicer and certainly far >better for 'kit-bashing'. And the bogies. The Triang ones had BR Mark 1 bogies, at least the Hornby ones had Dean. I saw some pretty good kit bashes from the Triang clerestories back in my OO days (late 1970s and early 1980s). Mostly making them longer and adding lavatories. Jim Russell (the bloke who wrote the GWR books) did an article in one of the magazines describing his kit bashing of these. He also kit-bashed ratio 4-wheelers into bogie stock using Triang clerestory roofs. These must have been OK because all these ran alongside Jim Whittaker's models. >John. > And the bogies. Yes, sorry, forgot about those! :-) John. >> And the bogies. > >Yes, sorry, forgot about those! :-) Those really got up my nose..... >John. > Hornby considered their market to be toy trains, Bachmann has > aimed at modellers. It certainly did between the 50s & 90s, but the current range of recent models certainly suggest that they're aiming very much at modellers these days. The current 'Flying Dutchman' trainpack is a throw back to the 1950s when 'Lord of the Isles' first appeared. It should really have been left there to rest in piece. It's not fit to grace the same room as the Op's Trix Bavarian class B (I've got the Marklin equivalent sitting in my display case) let alone sit alongside it. John. >> Hornby considered their market to be toy trains, Bachmann has >> aimed at modellers. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Bavarian class B (I've got the Marklin equivalent sitting in my display >case) let alone sit alongside it. I agree. They haven't even brought it up to the same standard as their other stuff. They obviously think there's a market for it otherwise they wouldn't keep trotting it out. It's sad really because the prototype is one of the most beautiful locomotives ever built. It's money for nothing because the tooling has been paid for long ago. I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V though. Not Trix but it has a train of Trix 6-wheeled coaches. It is brass but if the Trix had been available at the time I would have happily bought that instead. I have other early Trix and Roco locomotives though. >John. > I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German > model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V > though. Not Trix but it has a train of Trix 6-wheeled coaches. It is > brass but if the Trix had been available at the time I would have > happily bought that instead. I have other early Trix and Roco > locomotives though. My earlier thanks for the replies having apparantly gone astray, let me thank everhyone again for sensible and speedy replies. I was worried by the pictures of the Hornby set, and will save my money. I'm a bit disturbed by the state of the British hobby, which seems to consist almost entirely of models of the things we probably saw in our youth. I'm much more interested in earlier things. Trix make the rather nice 'Adler', albeit a model of a preserved set, (http://tinyurl.com/Trix-Adler) and B\chman offered a 'Clinton Dewitt' and 'John Bull' set - although I've not seen either yet. But where are the crewe-built cramptons here in the UK? Where the Stirling Single, The abbotsfords or the rather later GNR E1? Aerolite? Midland 156? Columbine is in the science museum. I want to run her on 16.5mm metals. >> I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German >> model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >(http://tinyurl.com/Trix-Adler) and B\chman offered a 'Clinton Dewitt' >and 'John Bull' set - although I've not seen either yet. I just checked the Eurorails web site (a US importer) and it looks as if there is a new production. The old one was over scale for HO, closer to OO. It was pretty crude with cutouts in the boiler to accommodate the over scale flanges on the driving wheels. The motor was in the leading carriage - an old fashioned motor with very noisy gears. I like Patentees (actually any Single but Patentees, Jenny Linds are favourites apart from the GWR Singles), and had visions of Anglicising it but it wasn't worth the effort. Bachmann also do a Norris. The early runs had a tiny motor mounted vertically in the firebox and for such a tiny, cheap engine it was a fantastic performer because it picked up power from the bogie wheels as well as the drivers. This gave pickup from at least two wheels on each side in contact with the rail. The Birmingham and Gloucester had some of these. Later runs used a tender drive which was rubbish - too light and a short rigid wheelbase so pickup was intermittent - The John Bull used this drive as well and was a poor performer. I've also got a Brass Saxonia that suffers from the same problem. I like the early stuff. One advantage is that locomotives and carriages hadn't developed the national styles they did later, so a mix'n'match doesn't look wrong. >But where are the crewe-built cramptons here in the UK? Where the >Stirling Single, The abbotsfords or the rather later GNR E1? >Aerolite? Midland 156? Columbine is in the science museum. I want to >run her on 16.5mm metals. Metropolitan did a brass Crampton which I think was one of the Tulk and Ley engines. These ran in both the UK and mainland Europe. I don't know whether this was HO or OO. >>> I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German >>> model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I just checked the Eurorails web site (a US importer) and it looks as > if there is a new production. Ma brought out the new "Der Adler" a few years back to commemorate something, perhaps the full size replica appearing at steam days. It's proper 1:87, diecast/etched, Faulhaber, and each limited release comes with a different combination of coaches at a hugher price. They stick a Trix label on the 2 rail versions. Ma/Trix also did the Geislingen 4-4-0 (1848) and the first Swiss Loco. SBB 2-4-0 and train, both with Faulhabers. (SBB= Spanish Broetli Bahn) > The old one was over scale for HO, closer to OO. It was pretty crude > with cutouts in the boiler to accommodate the over scale flanges on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > as well as the drivers. This gave pickup from at least two wheels on > each side in contact with the rail. The Bachmann Norris in it's original form was a Prussian Loco! > The Birmingham and Gloucester had some of these. > > Later runs used a tender drive which was rubbish - too light and a > short rigid wheelbase so pickup was intermittent - > > The John Bull used this drive as well and was a poor performer. In addition there was/is a little yank 0-4-0 with a tender drive. These last two locos are a reasonable place to start kit-bashing into 1820s-1850s locos, but I'd suggest collecting current from an attached coach or wagon, or even using the mechanisims in coaches or box wagons. >>>> I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German >>>> model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >SBB 2-4-0 and train, both with Faulhabers. >(SBB= Spanish Broetli Bahn) I've seen both of these but circumstances had changed so I no longer had the discretionary imcome - I had moved after my employer went bust to a new job on the other coast with a larger mortgage on a smaller income. >> The old one was over scale for HO, closer to OO. It was pretty crude >> with cutouts in the boiler to accommodate the over scale flanges on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >The Bachmann Norris in it's original form was a Prussian Loco! Yes. >> The Birmingham and Gloucester had some of these. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >an attached coach or wagon, or even using the mechanisims >in coaches or box wagons. That's why I bought the John Bull. The prototype was a Stevenson 0-4-0. Take off the locally built pilot truck and repace the tender which looked nothing like anything in the UK. But it didn't have any coupling rods. >>>>> I also know exactly what you mean about sitting alongside the German >>>>> model. I've got a similar exquisite Bavarian 2-4-0, a B 1X not a B 1V [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > which looked nothing like anything in the UK. But it didn't have any > coupling rods. It's a loco I've considered buying for conversion, but local shop keepers seem nervous when I ask to take one apart! Does it have crank-pin bosses and holes? Milling coupling rods isn't to big a problem (for me). Greg.P. >> That's why I bought the John Bull. The prototype was a Stevenson >> 0-4-0. Take off the locally built pilot truck and repace the tender [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >keepers seem nervous when I ask to take one apart! >Does it have crank-pin bosses and holes? No. It's actually like an unpowered bogie with outside bearings http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=370338756396 The real thing started off as a Stevenson 0-4-0 but was locally modified to a (2-2)-2-0. I wanted to convert it back to the original 0-4-0 which had outside sandwich frames, extended axles and outside cranks. >Milling coupling rods isn't to big a problem (for me). > >Greg.P. >>> That's why I bought the John Bull. The prototype was a Stevenson >>> 0-4-0. Take off the locally built pilot truck and repace the tender [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I wanted to convert it back to the original 0-4-0 which had outside > sandwich frames, extended axles and outside cranks. I forgot about the outside frames :-( My thought (before I forgot) was to purchase a spare rear axle/ wheelset and put that in the front driving axle space. One could once upon a time buy Bachmann spares. >> Milling coupling rods isn't to big a problem (for me). >> >> Greg.P. > Ma brought out the new "Der Adler" a few years back to commemorate > something, perhaps the full size replica appearing at steam days. > It's proper 1:87, diecast/etched, Faulhaber, and each limited release > comes with a different combination of coaches at a hugher price. > They stick a Trix label on the 2 rail versions. latest version is to commemorate the rebuilding of the prototype after the fire at the Nuernberg museum. It includes a dcc controller with a fixed address, which I find rather odd. I spent a week in Nuernberg but could not get into the musuem because of the german habit of a "Winterpause" at tourist attractions. Went tram-bashing of course. That wonderful station is now a shopping mall, but I can understand that 'cos the altstadt isn't. >But where are the crewe-built cramptons here in the UK? Where the >Stirling Single, http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=1583 $68 if you want to take the risk... Tim >>But where are the crewe-built cramptons here in the UK? Where the >>Stirling Single, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Tim Or if you want to order through a UK supplier. http://www.trainsontime.co.uk/58748-bachmann-emily-with-moving-eyes-p-911.html G.Harman >>But where are the crewe-built cramptons here in the UK? Where the >>Stirling Single, > >http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=1583 > >$68 if you want to take the risk... Actually one of that range makes a useful model - the traction engine makes a nice load and most people don't even notice the face. >Tim > http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&prod... > $68 if you want to take the risk... Tee Hee. > On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:05:33 -0800 (PST), bobharvey > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > $68 if you want to take the risk... This one seems to shift: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMbvMgCuuew That would scale up to about 300mph I reckon. > I'm a bit disturbed by the state of the British hobby, which seems to > consist almost entirely of models of the things we probably saw in our > youth. I'm much more interested in earlier things. You may well be, but I suspect as far as potential mass-produced models are concerned you'll be in a small minority. Certainly the vast majority of modellers I know recreate what they recall in their youth or later in life. John. >> I'm a bit disturbed by the state of the British hobby, which seems to >> consist almost entirely of models of the things we probably saw in our [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > John. Plus if you really want something different then out with the soldering iron and - as Jerry (bless) would say - do some real modelling ;-) Cheers, Simon >> I'm a bit disturbed by the state of the British hobby, which seems to >> consist almost entirely of models of the things we probably saw in our [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >John. They start off that way but change when the real world hits. Even as a boy in my Triang days a Pacific and three coaches looked wrong. When I got back into the hobby it was via the Airfix Prairie and 14xx. But when they bought out the Castle I bought one - it was streets ahead of the old Hornby/Wrenn offering. But after buying about 8 Centenary coaches I had nowhere to run a proper train apart from the club. A Dean Goods or a Mogul plus four Mainline Collett coaches was a far more practical train to run at home. I still had the Triang clerestories from my youth and these made an attractive train behind my smaller engines which happened to be the older ones. I also had some Ratio 4-wheelers and saw that a train of these "felt" longer than it actually was. When I moved up to O-gauge I remembered this lesson and went for an era when engines were smaller and carriages shorter. And my largest engine is a Dean Single from the 1985 DJB kit - named Duke of Connaught for the one which took over the mail train from City of Truro to continue the epic run with its own amazing performance of sustained speed. > "bobharvey" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Certainly the vast majority of modellers I know recreate what they recall in > their youth or later in life. Yes, but only in the UK AFAIK - in continetal model shops the very latest current liveried MUs and double deck trains are what dominate. A few old farts buy steam outline, but it seems as though most customers are modelling what lies before them. Not sure about the USA, my sample set is not large. But few of the shops I have been in have stocked anything remotely historic. In Uruguay the one model exhibition I went to was stuffed to the gills with models of the country's first train, first steamship, first aeroplane. But that was such a small sample as to be worthless! >>What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" >>Train Pack"? > >It's the old Triang Lord Of The Isles. The model is nearly 50 years >old. >There's no real reason not to do an up-to-date version. Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable price? The Bachmann/NRM City of Truro at least has the advantage that the real one is still around, and many who bought it because it is indeed a fine model have justified doing so because they can claim it is running as a preserved Loco on a modern era layout hauling MK1 coaches. Even so there have others who say it is too costly and others who have found it a little delicate to add the supplied detailing parts to. The class of locos depicted by the Tri-ang/Hornby loco have no such example that can be done with,even when they were about the appearance went through a couple of rebuilds so each style was only right for a few years so whatever version Hornby did would invite criticism for being wrong for others. G.Harman >Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable >price? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Even so there have others who say it is too costly and others who have >found it a little delicate to add the supplied detailing parts to. Yet Trix sees a market for highly detailed, well running 19th century locomotives like the one the original poster showed, where he wanted a comparison with the Dean Single? >The class of locos depicted by the Tri-ang/Hornby loco have no such >example that can be done with,even when they were about the appearance [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >G.Harman >>Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable >>price? >> The Bachmann/NRM City of Truro at least has the advantage that the >>real one is still around, >>Even so there have others who say it is too costly and others who have >>found it a little delicate to add the supplied detailing parts to. > >Yet Trix sees a market for highly detailed, well running 19th century >locomotives like the one the original poster showed, where he wanted a >comparison with the Dean Single? You were absolutely right on your advice as to what the Dean Single is, a 50 year old model for a toy market. still it looked good when compared with a lot of what had just preceded it in the 50's.Hornby Dublo lost out as we know in the Battle against "Cheap" plastic and Two rail, changing policy too late. My point was aimed at your comment There's no real reason not to do an up-to-date version. When you come to a non mainstream model that by it's nature well be scrutinized closely then a volume manufacturer will be cautious. There is a point where when you may need to almost hand detail a loco to satisfy the purist then you have to charge a relevant price. Then people would say I'm not paying that for a Hornby Model so you need to sell a lot to keep the cost down. I see the Trix model is over £400 at a UK supplier and the prices overseas where it is still in stock are in the same region. Some people will demand working lubricators for that price. Hornby's market for better or worse is stuck in the 00 sector where as Trix has the rest of the World to sell in H0. I reckon a lot went to collectors in N.America and in Stud contact form a many will have been sold under the Marklin brand which has a long Pedigree and a loyal market. Perhaps Hornby need to develop a niche brand ,possibly Basset Lowke or buy out Golden Age Models then they could sell top notch models to a realistic price without the Baggage of "There are not Hornby but really are Tri-ang and should be cheap because my Nellie was" that seems to accompany them sometimes. G.Harman > Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable > price? Is the 'Flying Dutchman' pack affordable &/or value for money? John. >> Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable >> price? > >Is the 'Flying Dutchman' pack affordable &/or value for money? > >John. What would you charge for it? A quick scan of other retailers shows it goes for around £100 to £130 . That is probably quite an affordable price for a loco and 3 coaches. Whether that is value for money is for the individual to decide. It's definitely not a detailed model by todays standards but some may like the simplicity of an old style model that you can let kids play with.works for the revamped Lionel in the US. But I think The Old Tri-ang model is a bit of red herring here as we have established it's not really for the modern market. It exists so nowt wrong with Hornby earning from it ,they aren't trying to pass it off as a super detailed jobby. A better comparison would be the T9 ,that seemed to get good reviews and for the price of the Trix model you could get 3 or 4 of them but again the prototypes were in service for the best part of 60 years so a lot layouts could have one if you ignore the class modifications. I Reckon if Hornby went the next step up to the level of the Trix/Marklin model the regular Hornby bashers would Turn to winge about a £450 price tag. There were moans about the cost of the Bachmann/NRM City of Truro and that was still a fair way off the £400 mark. G.Harman >>> Would that sell well enough to enable it to be sold at an affordable >>> price? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > G.Harman Agree, I bought the Caley Single set for the tot. It will never fit my area or period but its nice to run something different like that now and again. Plus hes allowed to be less than gentle with it, when its rough enough can weather it :-) Cheers, Simon > What would you charge for it? A quick scan of other retailers shows > it goes for around £100 to £130 . That is probably quite an affordable > price for a loco and 3 coaches. The quality is on a par with (or below that of) the 'Railroad' range therefore I'd suggest £45 for the loco & £15 each for the coaches. Therefore an RRP of £90 (£70-75 discounted) would potentially be reasonable. John. In article <c54ceb56-392a-43e8-b4b7-abefae695da9@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, > What do people think of Hornby's "R2706 GWR "The Flying Dutchman" > Train Pack"? > I'm particularly interested in pre-1900 prototypes, but I've only seen > pictures of this model. > How would it compare with the level of detail on e.g. > http://tinyurl.com/trix22184 that I have one of? For nostalgic reasons (I had an original Triang Lord of the Isles) I bought "Lorna Doone" Dean single when it was available as a "super detail" limited edition from Hornby a few years ago. First the good points: good paint job, good back head detail, after running in motor is responsive and despite the single driver pulls 3 coaches easily on fairly tight curves of my test track, DCC socket. Now the bad: lots of daylight under the frames to allow for the bogie swing making it look as if it is riding too high, solid handrails but the very fine silver line rather cleverly deceives you at a first glance, too much space between loco and tender to allow for tight curves - shortening the link and a fall plate and crew would help to disguise this, moulded safety valve cover is appalling. However if you view your layout from some way away and from above and don't allow veiwers to examine it closely, then it looks OK as a quick way of getting a Dean era loco. Alan  Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC > For nostalgic reasons (I had an original Triang Lord of the Isles) I > bought "Lorna Doone" Dean single when it was available as a "super detail" > limited edition from Hornby a few years ago. Eh? What was 'super-detailed' about 'Lorna Doone'? John. >> For nostalgic reasons (I had an original Triang Lord of the Isles) I >> bought "Lorna Doone" Dean single when it was available as a "super detail" >> limited edition from Hornby a few years ago. > >Eh? What was 'super-detailed' about 'Lorna Doone'? I had a Lord Of The Isles and original clerestories in the 1960s. I started playing again with the trains I had as a teenager in the 1960s when I bought my first house in 1977 because the boxed I moved included stuff packed away when I left home to go to university. But it took Airfix and then Mainline stuff to get me back into the hobby properly because these were so much better. The old Triang stuff got junked apart from the clerestories. I kept the Peco Wonderful Wagons. >John. > > For nostalgic reasons (I had an original Triang Lord of the Isles) I > > bought "Lorna Doone" Dean single when it was available as a "super > > detail" limited edition from Hornby a few years ago. > Eh? What was 'super-detailed' about 'Lorna Doone'? It was labelled as such on the box - perhaps it was the box not the loco that was "super detail" :-) Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC |
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