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Model Forum / General / Railroads / April 2010Minimal train power
Hi, I've recently bought a brand new City Industrial Hornby train set which all works perfectly. Today I received a 2nd hand 125 through the post from eBay. When I first put it on the track nothing happened, so I though "great it's broke". As I pumped up the dial the train started to buzz (as they normally do) but it didn't really move. I've tried to clean off the wheels as much as possible and now with my dial on full (which would make by City Industrial fly off the tack) the 125 goes round at a snails pace. It seems to me there isn't enough electrical contact rather than a motor issue. The reason I say that is because the lights only come on properly when the dial is high also. Is there anything I am missing? I'm a bit confused about the whole DCC thing but I'm pretty sure the City Industrial transformer is DC (it's a small silver/grey box with a black dial in the middle) and the 125 looks about 30 years old so I'm pretty sure that is DC too. It's like my transformer is not powerful enough but surely it should run all trains? -- The Zero ST >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >It's like my transformer is not powerful enough but surely it should >run all trains? A bit of a follow up: I've just put the dummy on the track alone and put the power up and the lights only really come on near the end of the dial (like the live loco). The wheels on the dummy are spotless so I don't think it's a connection issue. It really looks like the transformer/controller is not compatible. Surely this can't be the case? -- The Zero ST > <coope1...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Hi, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > -- > The Zero ST If you have a solder iron and can get hold of a car side light bulb (5 watt 12v) then why not solder a wire each onto the lamp tip and body, connect a wire to each of the rails without a train being on it and watch the results. It should start to burn at about 1/4 setting and increase smoothly all the way up. If this does not happen then there is indeed something wrong with your power supply unit. Regards >>Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > -- > The Zero ST Tis true that controller doesnt throw out much in the way of amps and someone might be able to tell you that you do need a more powerful one. however even if you do, although the wheels look spotless am sure there will be some oxidisation after all that time so would suggest a good clean. Track rubber followed by kitchen roll is good, on old wheels might be tempted to use wet/dry lightly for first use. Most important is on inside of wheels where pickups are located. Definately recommend light wet/dry on the pickups. Cheers, Simon >>>Hi, >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >Cheers, >Simon Thanks for the info....Not to sound like an idiot but what is wet/dry light? -- The Zero ST >>>> Hi, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>> Today I received a 2nd hand 125 through the post from eBay. .... >>>> Is there anything I am missing? >>>> It's like my transformer is not powerful enough but surely it >>>> should run all trains? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Thanks for the info....Not to sound like an idiot but what is wet/dry > light? Simon is suggesting that the wheels and pickups are cleaned gently with "wet and dry" abrasive paper. If you do this (and I personally I'd avoid doing it to my models), then use very fine grades, typically sold for preparation of car repairs prior to painting. And, when finished, be very sure you have cleaned all traces of the abrasive dust away and make sure its not got into bearing surfaces or trapped in oil/grease on bearings (or it will happily grind those as well). Remotely, its very hard to diagnose faults; could be inadequate power from controller, or could be poor motor/pickups in loco. I can't believe that an old Hornby model needs over 1amp of supply. Therefore, if your existing power-unit is very low power, try a cheap 1A controller (the Bachmann ex-trainset ones seem fine). - Nigel  SignatureNigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/ >>>>> Hi, >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > - Nigel True wet/dry is a bit brutal. Best get a track rubber and cut a slice off it. You will need one to clean track and other loco wheels at some stage. Cheers, Simon >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > off it. You will need one to clean track and other loco wheels at > some stage. ARGH !!!! Track rubbers are the work of stan. Bits of abrasive which scratches rails, and rubber which disintegrates everywhere. For track cleaning: hardboard. At a push with really stubborn corrosion, very fine wet&dry on a flat board, or nail polishing sticks. - Nigel SignatureNigel Cliffe, Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/ >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > - Nigel Be warned that whatever advice you get on here there will always be someone that will contradict it - often with dire warnings. Nigel is someone who is nearly always worth listening to (but I will continue with a track rubber). :-) Cheers, Simon > Be warned that whatever advice you get on here there will always be > someone that will contradict it No there won't. SignatureArthur Figgis Surrey, UK >>> Hi, >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Cheers, > Simon First thing you could try is putting the leads from the controller across the motor brushes and see if the motor runs OK. If it does then start looking at the pick-ups. You could try meths with a bit of rag should not need any abrasive, if there's no visible muck, that's what we have used on exhibition layouts before. Peco electrolub is good to in the axle holders in the bogies. SignatureChris > >>> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > have used on exhibition layouts before. Peco electrolub is good to in > the axle holders in the bogies. Checking and cleaning as described by the other members is relatively easy but replacing bushes does require a steady hand and patience. If you're not confident enough it's going to cost you from £15 to £ 20 upwards for a service plus parts. Many loco's are just clogged up with what I call 'carpet fluff'. If you follow the other 'Chris' s suggestions you may get results. It's a simple case of elimination. Regards Chris On 29 Apr, 14:03, Alan Dawes <alan.da...@argonet.co.uk> wrote: > In article > At least one thing has come from this, I've discovered a source of the > older Hornby service sheets which are not on the Hornby site. You can find > the service sheet number formhttp://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/contents > and then download a JPEG of it fromhttp://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ > and would like to thank the "Blissetts" for this excellent resource. Alos on http://www.modeltrains.net.au/hornby/service_sheet_menu.asp this site also has the 'Locomotive Operation And Maintenance' sheets For Hornby Dublo Service Sheets try http://www.mtrains.co.uk/3.html Chris > >Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >It's like my transformer is not powerful enough but surely it should > >run all trains? > A bit of a follow up: > I've just put the dummy on the track alone and put the power up and > the lights only really come on near the end of the dial (like the live > loco). The wheels on the dummy are spotless so I don't think it's a > connection issue. > It really looks like the transformer/controller is not compatible. > Surely this can't be the case? I've had a similar problem with split chassis locos that I've not used for about 10 years. I found that the problem was that over time the grease on the axles has hardened and formed an insulating layer between the axle picking up power from the track and the chassis. Removing the keeper plate and cleaning the axle and slot "bearing" in the chassis using electrical contact cleaner spray and a cotton bud and then lubricating with a very small drop oc Peco PL-64 power-lube (the replacement for electrolube they used to sell) solved the prblem. The extra resistance of the hardened lubricant caused the loss in power to the motor. I've not had to work on an old Hornby 125 and the modern ones are different so the pdf of the service sheet from the Hornby site isn't much help: http://static.hornby.com/files/hss-332-class-43-hst-434.pdf However I think the old ones had one powered bogie with an integral ring field motor taking power form one side of the track through the wheels, axle and chassis with the oposite wheels' hubs insulated. The other side of the track was connected via the non-powered bogie in the same way with a wire going to the motor (the lights taking power in the same way). If this is correct then I would guess that it has a similar problem to my locos. Remove the screws holding the keeper plate to the chassis of each bogie clean the axles and bearing slots, relubricate with the smallest amount of lubricant and reassemble. If this doesn't cure it and, assuming you have cleaned the wheels and track, then it's likely to be a problem with the motor eg too liberal lubrication could have got on the brushes and commutator - the commutator will need cleaning and the brushes replacing or it's been stored close to a strong magnetic field and the magnets need remagnetising. Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC >>> Hi, >>> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Alan Good info, Alan! Filed for future reference. wolf k. > > I've had a similar problem with split chassis locos that I've not used > > for about 10 years. I found that the problem was that over time the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > > Alan > Good info, Alan! Filed for future reference. > wolf k. I should have added that if, like some old Hornby locos, the pickups are springy pieces of metal (brass or steel) contacting the inner rim of the wheel then the backs of the wheels will need to be cleaned as well as the pickups themselves ensuring that when it is put back together you adjust it so that the metal is still sprung against the wheel backs. Some of the old Airfix models had plunger type pickups with internal springs that sometimes got dirty and the pick up stuck inside the casing. A spray with contact cleaner sometimes freed them otherwise they needed to be replaced eg with a springy contact wire like the Hornby type. Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC > > > I've had a similar problem with split chassis locos that I've not > > > used for about 10 years. I found that the problem was that over time [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > > > > Alan > > Good info, Alan! Filed for future reference. > > wolf k. > I should have added that if, like some old Hornby locos, the pickups are > springy pieces of metal (brass or steel) contacting the inner rim of the > wheel then the backs of the wheels will need to be cleaned as well as > the pickups themselves ensuring that when it is put back together you > adjust it so that the metal is still sprung against the wheel backs. > Some of the old Airfix models had plunger type pickups with internal > springs that sometimes got dirty and the pick up stuck inside the > casing. A spray with contact cleaner sometimes freed them otherwise they > needed to be replaced eg with a springy contact wire like the Hornby > type. "Dragon Heart" has given the following link to the old Hornby HST 125 service sheet http://static.hornby.com/files/ss-266b-239.pdf It shows that it used springy metal as pick ups from the unpowered bogie rather than pickup through the axles, so just cleaning the accumulated muck from the back of the wheels and the pickups could be the cure for the ills that Craig's HST exhibits. Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC > In article <510ea886f9alan.da...@argonet.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > alan.da...@riscos.org > Using an Acorn RiscPC That model does not use "springy pickups" but relies on the wheel - axle and main block as the conductor to the take off terminal. Dirt can be in the bearing slot or on the wheel surfaces. I use meths to clean these problems up. It is rare to find one of these motors drawing more than 350mA at full load and I have always been impressed by their longevity. I do so wish that they were not so sprightly under DCC control though! Peter A In article <1d78fbec-842e-479f-9b26-69f0694dfbf6@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, > > In article <510ea886f9alan.da...@argonet.co.uk>, > > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > alan.da...@riscos.org > > Using an Acorn RiscPC > That model does not use "springy pickups" but relies on the wheel - > axle and main block as the conductor to the take off terminal. Dirt [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > by their longevity. I do so wish that they were not so sprightly > under DCC control though! > Peter A That's what I originally thought until I looked at that pdf. If you look at the left hand drawings on that page you will clearly see that the pick up is by springy metal pickups attached to the non-power bogie and labelled as item 3 on the drawing and in the list below as "Collector/Wire Assembly X8515" Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC > In article > <1d78fbec-842e-479f-9b26-69f0694df...@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > alan.da...@riscos.org > Using an Acorn RiscPC The only model which I recall using this type of pickup was the very early Class 47 and I did find a 37 also but the R069 version on service sheet 108 of 1978 shows only the arrangement which I have quoted. The only fact which evades me is -- was there a pre 1978 version? Peter A > In article > <1d78fbec-842e-479f-9b26-69f0694df...@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > alan.da...@riscos.org > Using an Acorn RiscPC Further to my last epistle, the dwg you quote is for the (to me) very modern 5 pole version my version is of the 30 year old version! Peter In article <db4ad260-5527-4dc0-b56b-5fa34ccc3e4c@y12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <1d78fbec-842e-479f-9b26-69f0694df...@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > > > > > Alan > > > That model does not use "springy pickups" but relies on the wheel - > > > axle and main block as the conductor to the take off terminal. Dirt [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > Alan > Further to my last epistle, the dwg you quote is for the (to me) very > modern 5 pole version my version is of the 30 year old version! > Peter You're correct although there are HST125 service sheets ss205b and ss205c showing a similar arrangement for the earlier 3 pole version with springy pickups on the non-powered bogie see: http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ss-205b.jpg http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ss-205c.jpg However I assume that this varient is also fairly recent perhaps from the late 1990s or early 2000s. I assume that the earlier Hornby HST 125s were as Peter said with pickup via the axles as shown in the sevice sheet ss205 http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ss-205.jpg and in the earlier service sheets from 1978 ss108 and ss106 http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ss-108.jpg http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ss-106.jpg So it looks like Craig will have to clean the axles and slots rather than just the wheel backs. At least one thing has come from this, I've discovered a source of the older Hornby service sheets which are not on the Hornby site. You can find the service sheet number form http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/contents and then download a JPEG of it from http://web.blissett.me.uk/house/hornby-service-sheets/ and would like to thank the "Blissetts" for this excellent resource. Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC > In article > <db4ad260-5527-4dc0-b56b-5fa34ccc3...@y12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > alan.da...@riscos.org > Using an Acorn RiscPC Checking on the models quoted for the ss205 the oldest there is R2000 which dates from 1997. This was a one off and was then followed 7 years later by the R2045 and it's variants. The 5 pole came along in 2006 (R2298 & 2376) and the" à point" units from 2009 (2701X etc )with the centre mounted motor and cardan shafts. My latest acquisition is a 21 year old pristine unit which has shown that DCC loco 0 (DC on DCC system) will not operate the auto reversing units (Hornby) due to the long delay between poles hitting the break point! Yet another good reason to have universal pickups. This one will provide the means of experimenting with Single chip DCC with lights via mini inter carriage plug & socket connections. There also appears to be a dearth of Bachmann 36-553 decoders available -- any rumours? > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > The Zero ST Rest assured, you are running DC (direct current). Besides rail-wheel contact, there are two other issues here. a) the power pack is not made to handle older motors; and b) an old engine will have a lot of internal resistance. Put the two together, and you get the results you've observed. a) A train-set power pack will not necessarily "run all trains", just the ones it's made for. The City Industrial set loco has a modern motor that draws about 1/4 ampere under maximum load (with wheels slipping.) The 125 has a motor that draws 1/2 to 1 ampere, plus a bunch of lights. The train-set power pack probably delivers around 1 ampere maximum at 12 volts, which is not really enough to run a high-draw motor plus lights. You should find a specs panel on it with these data. Actually, I'm amazed that the train-set power pack can even move the 125. It is certainly overloaded. If you run the 125 for a few minutes, the power pack will likely shut down, as it is protected against overload. Solution: buy a larger power pack. b) Old oil and grease turns into a kind of waxy varnish over time, which creates a lot of drag in the gear train. Solution: cleaning. You can clean the motor and gear train in the 125, which will reduce the power draw. Easiest way is to use a good plastic compatible light oil. Dribble a drop two into the gears, and run the motor for a few minutes. That will loosen up the gunk. If you can get at the brushes, use a good quality contact cleaner/lubricator fluid to clean the gunk that's piled up and solidified there; one or two drops is enough. Again, run the motor for a few minutes. HTH wolf k. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > HTH > wolf k. What we need is someone else that has one - oh b*gger, the tot has one that got him ages ago, also 2nd hand. Gave it a try on guagemaster controller. set dial to 60 - well round. HST goes fairly steady, put tender drive Brittania on, goes like a bomb. Wheels are dirty on HST, will give em a clean, but looks as though its power. Lights dont work at all, prob loose wire. Cheers, Simon >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >It's like my transformer is not powerful enough but surely it should >run all trains? Thanks for all your input. I tink I will take it to a local model shop and have them look at it. If it's worth it I'll get it cleaned up. It didn't cost me much in the first place. -- The Zero ST It’s worth running the loco with the body removed ie sparks or worn gears It’s a while since I had my original HST but I think I had problems with the traction tyres and some say they had problems with sticky axles on the dummy power car. A 30 year old model with an unknown history suggests giving it a service to me. Even a new set of brush’s, a clean and a spot of oil may help. http://static.hornby.com/files/ss-266b-239.pdf http://www.modeltrains.net.au/hornby/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=37 >Its worth running the loco with the body removed ie sparks or worn >gears [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://www.modeltrains.net.au/hornby/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=37 Thanks for the info... I could never serivce it myself so would have to take it to a model shop. It looks like you're not in the UK but do you have any idea how much a service would typically cost in-store? -- The Zero ST " ARGH !!!! Track rubbers are the work of stan " Who's Stan ? '0' |
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