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Model Forum / General / Railroads / August 2010Peco point motors 2: The Sequel
Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons of both. Guy  Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. > Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I > use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons > of both. > > Guy But you havent told us how you are getting on ! Cheers, Simon >> Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I >> use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >But you havent told us how you are getting on ! One of the buggers still won't operate even with a CDU (and yes I did already knew about these, I had to build a second one because they don't function well at more than about 3' distance). Does anyone know if the Aussie electronics bloke ships his CDU PCBs to the UK? I don't have the kit for etching or the enthusiasm for getting it, and building on Veroboard is always a bit of a chore. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. >>> Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I >>> use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Guy You never did say what power source you are using ? Plus it is possible to wire them the wrong way round. Cheers, Simon [ob. Peco point motors] >You never did say what power source you are using ? >Plus it is possible to wire them the wrong way round. I've tried three power sources: a Peco CDU, a 12V DC line with a 2200µF can (charged via a 2k2 resistor) and directly on 16V AC. What do you mean the wrong way round? Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. > [ob. Peco point motors] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Guy So they try to close point when should be opening it. >> What do you mean the wrong way round? >So they try to close point when should be opening it. They have two solenoids, one drives on and one drives off. The problem motors usually drive one way fine but not the other. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. >>> What do you mean the wrong way round? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Guy Probably a mechanical problem - coils out of alignment or something like that causing friction on the armature. SignatureRegards John >>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Probably a mechanical problem - coils out of alignment or something like > that causing friction on the armature. Every Peco point motor I have see has been so sloppy beteeen armature and coils that bits of ballast or moths could squeeze through. Greg.P. >>> What do you mean the wrong way round? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > motors usually drive one way fine but not the other. > Guy Quite likely you have the point motor mounted too far one way - ie, off-center. Assuming they/it is below baseboard, have someone hold the motor in the center position and then look at the point/tie bar and make sure it (the pointsd) is sitting equidistant to both stock rails. If you haven't got a second person then shim between point blades and stock rails and adjust the point motor so the operating pin is centered between the solenoids. Greg.P. >>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Quite likely you have the point motor mounted too far one way - ie, >off-center. I really don't think so, I have gone to extraordinary lengths to get it aligned correctly. >Assuming they/it is below baseboard, have someone hold the motor in the >center [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >rails and adjust the point motor so the operating pin is centered between >the solenoids. I'll have a go, but I am pretty confident that some motors are just "lazy". Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. > If you haven't got a second person then shim between point blades and > stock rails and adjust the point motor so the operating pin is > centered between the solenoids. An alternative is to push the wire up through the little 'ole and then hold it in place with a spring clip, that way it will stay in place whilst you do a little solo fettling re positioning. SignatureAll the best, Chris >>> What do you mean the wrong way round? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Guy They arent push pull then depending on which way current going through ? Just seems curious that you are having trouble with so many, suggests youor doing something strange or bad batch. Where did you get them from ? Cheers, Simon >>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Just seems curious that you are having trouble with so many, suggests youor >doing something strange or bad batch. Where did you get them from ? Bad batch I had not considered. They came from Hattons and yes they were a job lot. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. >>>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Guy Hattons ;-) Fingers quiver above keyboard - but dare not comment cept wont touch with ..... Cheers, Simon > They arent push pull then depending on which way current going through ? No, the pole piece is just soft iron and will get pulled to whichever end is energised regardless of the way the current is applied (or if ac is used to energise it). Jeff >>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > They arent push pull then depending on which way current going through ? The armature is soft unmagnetized iron and the coils each drag the iron armature in to the end they are situated at. Kato is probably the only manufacurer doing single coil motors which push or pull a magnet depending on current polarity. A problem with using DC (CDU) is that the soft iron core can get magnetized if power is applied for more than a fraction of a second - luckily, throwing the turnout the other way reverses the process. > Just seems curious that you are having trouble with so many, suggests > youor doing something strange or bad batch. Where did you get them from ? Greg.P. > A problem with using DC (CDU) is that the soft iron core can get > magnetized if power is applied for more than a fraction of a second - > luckily, throwing the turnout the other way reverses the process. I thought that one of the properties of soft iron is that it doesn't retain magnetism after the electromagnetic field is removed ie at room temperature and above the magnetic domains return to a random pattern unlike in steel where the impurities such as carbon atoms prevent the domains from returning to a random pattern after they have been aligned by an electromagnetic field. Alan Signaturealan.dawes@argonet.co.uk alan.dawes@riscos.org Using an Acorn RiscPC >> A problem with using DC (CDU) is that the soft iron core can get >> magnetized if power is applied for more than a fraction of a second - [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Alan I have my doubts that Peco point motor armatures are pure iron :-) > >>>> What do you mean the wrong way round? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > A problem with using DC (CDU) is that the soft iron core can get magnetized > if power is applied for more than a fraction of a second - That's all you should get with a CDU. That's the point of using a CDU, a far bigger wallop that the power supply could supply by itself, for a very short period. MBQ >> >> On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:08:26 +0100, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > MBQ I did mean DC _or_ SDU. Sorry. Greg.P. Just got back from a very wet trip to Budapest where I fell upon the NG tourist railway operated by the young people(sauf drivers). just a tad surprised to find the Peco Point subject still active. If the advise given by experienced chaps is not to be accepted then there is not much point in prolonging the agony! Peter A B.Sc Dip Nuc Tech OAP and 11 plus 1949. > Just got back from a very wet trip to Budapest where I fell upon the > NG tourist railway operated by the young people(sauf drivers). just a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Peter A B.Sc Dip Nuc Tech OAP and 11 plus 1949. I've just come back from north Yorkshire Moors - week with cubs as a parent/helper. Did a visit to NYMR, very nice railway indeed but bit crowded with holiday persons (inc us). Standing room only after Some southern engine failed. Real laugh though and got to see Aidensfield station :-) cheers, Simon >> Just got back from a very wet trip to Budapest where I fell upon the >> NG tourist railway operated by the young people(sauf drivers). just a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >with holiday persons (inc us). Standing room only after Some southern engine >failed. Real laugh though and got to see Aidensfield station :-) My bro Andy volunteers there. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. >>> Just got back from a very wet trip to Budapest where I fell upon the >>> NG tourist railway operated by the young people(sauf drivers). just a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Guy Ask him if they got some stick from passengers after thursdays break down. Had a good laugh with Aidensfield platform staff, thanked them for the BR experience - onto the train, train sits, off the train, told diesel will pull coaches to shed, diesel shunts coaches onto other platform, passengers get on and it sets off in opposite direction to Whitby, we wait awhile, onto train thats already almost full and return to Pickering wondering why diesel could have taken us instead ? But tell him theyre a good bunch of volunteers even if fireman of Standard 4 was putting more coal up the chimney than stayed in firebox :-) Cheers, Simon > "Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chapman@spamcop.net> wrote... >> "simon" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Standard 4 was putting more coal up the chimney than stayed in firebox > :-) I was once waiting on Gothland (Aidensfield) platform when Schools Class 4-4-0 "Repton" with half-a-dozen coaches came pounding up the 1:49 gradient from Grosmont. Unfortunately, a signal malfunction forced it to a stop just short of the station. It took a great deal of smoke, steam and skilful handling of the controls to restart it and get it into the station, but they managed it! SignatureMartin S. On Jul 24, 8:41 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: > [ob. Peco point motors] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've tried three power sources: a Peco CDU, a 12V DC line with a > 2200µF can (charged via a 2k2 resistor) and directly on 16V AC. Up the input voltage to the CDU and increase the capacitance. MBQ > On Jul 24, 8:41 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?" > <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > MBQ I tend to disagree - if the point motor won't throw when 16+volts from a 2200uf capacitor (12 volts times 1.4) then there is a definite mechanical or electrical problem. Greg.P. > On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:37 +1200, manatba...@hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 16+volts from a 2200uf capacitor (12 volts times 1.4) then there is > a definite mechanical or electrical problem. Try reading what was written. 12V *DC* is 12V DC not 16V. The 16V was AC, and was direct with no CDU. If it will not throw with a 12V *DC* 2200uF CDU then try increasing the voltage or capacitance. MBQ >> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:37 +1200, manatba...@hotmail.com >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >If it will not throw with a 12V *DC* 2200uF CDU then try increasing >the voltage or capacitance. It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on fleabay go for silly money. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. However, we are forgetting the first principles of fault finding - isolate the problem component. So take a working combination of point and motor (no switches) and a non-working one. Swap motors. Note results. Swap them back, note results. CHeers, Simon On Jul 27, 9:28 am, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 00:25:31 -0700 (PDT), "manatba...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on > fleabay go for silly money. So it wasn't 12V DC then! MBQ >> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a >> cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on >> fleabay go for silly money. >So it wasn't 12V DC then! Let's not have that argument, eh? I have a B.Eng (hons) in electrical engineering so it could go on a while. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. >>> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a >>> cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Guy Deadly, doesnt that mean you cant wire a switch without redesigning and adding circuitry for power smoothing, voice activation and a sound mudule for realistic noises :-) Cheers, Simon >>>> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a >>>> cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > adding circuitry for power smoothing, voice activation and a sound > mudule for realistic noises :-) Stick an electrode in a potato, drop it in a bowl of coke, dangle another wire in the coke and drag the two loose ends across the terminals of a Peco motor and it will probably flop across :-) They will work almost as well with the circuit you're postulating! Greg.P. (actually, you'd need about 3 potatos in series, but ...) >>>>> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a >>>>> cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Greg.P. > (actually, you'd need about 3 potatos in series, but ...) Did think of alternate power source but more towards solar than the truely esoteric :-) Cheers, Simon >>>>>> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get >>>>>> on a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Did think of alternate power source but more towards solar than the > truely esoteric :-) You'll be wanting the low current version of the Peco point motor ;-) Greg.P. >>> It's rectified so it's probably 16V peak, which is what you'd get on a >>> cap, even though it is 12V RMS. Sadly all those oscilloscopes on >>> fleabay go for silly money. > >> So it wasn't 12V DC then! Very few power supplies labled 12V DC are actually 12V DC! Automotive (car) batteries are actually 13.8 volts when properly charged. Anything designed to run from a car battery will be optimised for 13.8 volts. Model railway transformers were intended as replacements for car batteries. (ok, that's arguable ;-) Way back, to get 12 V DC from a transformer one started with a 16 V AC transformer and a selenium bridge rectifier which would loose something close to 4 volts. Today we use silicon rectifiers which loose about 1.4 volts, so you'd need a 13.4 volt transformer to get 12 volts RMS. 12 volts RMS varies between 0 volts and 16.95 volts 100 times per second, averaging 12 volts. Electric motors don't care, they see the average. Greg.P. On Jul 27, 10:57 am, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:50:47 -0700 (PDT), "manatba...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Let's not have that argument, eh? I have a B.Eng (hons) in electrical > engineering so it could go on a while. Mine is in electronic engineering plus a diploma and 30+ years practical experience. Most reasonable people would assume "12V DC" to mean a regulated voltage at or near 12V, not some AC voltage that is full or half regulated, unsmoothed and peaks at 16V. MBQ >On Jul 27, 10:57 am, "Just zis Guy, you know?" ><guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Mine is in electronic engineering plus a diploma and 30+ years >practical experience. Then you should know better. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. On Jul 28, 12:14 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:17:32 -0700 (PDT), "manatba...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Then you should know better. <shrug> > On Jul 27, 10:57 am, "Just zis Guy, you know?" > <guy.chap...@spamcop.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > voltage at or near 12V, not some AC voltage that is full or half > regulated, unsmoothed and peaks at 16V. Certainly not when considering model railway supplies and controllers!! Just because it says 12V DC on the back doesn't mean that it is a regulated & smoothed 12V dc coming out. Jeff "manatbandq@hotmail.com" <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote in news:7ccb9489- 7b97-4a91-be8c-0479ba525a92@q22g2000yqm.googlegroups.com: >> Let's not have that argument, eh? I have a B.Eng (hons) in electrical >> engineering so it could go on a while. > > Mine is in electronic engineering plus a diploma and 30+ years > practical experience. When I started at secondary school I used to be bought "Everyday Electronics" by my parents on subscription and I once designed a burglar alarm using CMOS chips, does that count for anything? (What colour is earth nowadays?) SignatureAll the best, Chris > (What colour is earth nowadays?) Depends where you are. Round here it's generally brownish-black, tending to the yellow when I've mixed some sand with it. SignatureJane >> (What colour is earth nowadays?) > > Depends where you are. Round here it's generally brownish-black, tending > to the yellow when I've mixed some sand with it. He he ... I stocked up once I new Part P was coming in ;-) SignatureAll the best, Chris >> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:37 +1200, manatba...@hotmail.com >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > 12V *DC* is 12V DC not 16V. I'm well aware of what was written - unless you're using a regulated power supply such as one taken from a computer the 12 volts output will be a rectified sine wave. Smooth that with a capacitor and you will get a voltage across the capacitor of about 16 volts because the capacitor will charge to the peak voltage output from the power supply. That will be just over 16 volts, assuming you have a precision wound transformer - otherwise it will be a bit higher. (Transformer voltages are determined at an average current output, no-load average will be a volt or two higher.) You can test all this with a $10- multimeter and a capacitor if you don't believe me. > The 16V was AC, and was direct with no CDU. I assumed that. See my comments on actual voltages above. > If it will not throw with a 12V *DC* 2200uF CDU then try increasing > the voltage or capacitance. If that is the case then most likely one of the following is the fault" - Your linkage between motor and point bar is binding. - your point blades are binding. - your point motor has been screwed down too tightly and is damaged. - your wires between power scource and motor are too small and are causing excessive resistance. - you have two over center springs; point bar and motor mount. - motor center point differs from tiebar center point. - several of the above combined. - something off the wall like having two solenoids in series. - a dud point motor. (the very last possibility if they are new) I've been using Peco motors for the last 40 years, many being second-hand and have had only one dud in that time - a second-hand one. They require some care in set-up but the force available is much more than is required. Regards, Greg.P. > MBQ SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>> Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I >>> use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Guy If you mean DCC Concepts of Perth then yes, his UK distributor is Bromsgrove Models. SignatureRegards John >>>> Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I >>>> use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > If you mean DCC Concepts of Perth then yes, his UK distributor is > Bromsgrove Models. Piano wire (push-pull) and fishing line (pull-pull for long distances) is my own preferred point control option, based mainly on cost (I can add dpdt switches to the piano wire but not to the fishing line). Guy's layout is (by my standards) huge, the chap I am helping has a 10x12 layout with centrall hole (but this has been getting smaller as he has been adding bits to the inside to make more room for track and scenery). I was planning on using piano wire but he has now purchased a 12-way switched point controller with built in CDU (he already has a CDU in the matching uber-controller pack), but as the track is glued down I was going to use the newer Peco trackside point motors. Having read the foregoing I'll take a load of wire and tube with me, just in case. On the plus side he was at deaths door, he has been getting steadily worse and I really didn't expect him to make it to Xmas, but he collapsed, went into hospital, got his medication checked, prescription changed and he is back to where he was over a year ago. So, with any luck this'll become his first attepmt and knowing what he now knows we can scrap it and start again (after we have got it to the point where there isn't anything he want to add). For a first attempt he hasn't done too badly, I am not trying to build it for him, just help with the electrics and a few pointers, and he has learned a lot. He has also had a lot of pleasure from it. BTW thanks for the guidance on the engines, those little 2-6-2s are running beautifully. Regards Mike >>>>> Following the previous discussion I have documented the techniques I >>>>> use for mounting below and through the board, with the pros and cons [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Mike Dont be put off by Guys motor problem, suspect its unusual. Was just wondering if motors are fixed to points via the tabs on motor case or if their held to baseboard some other way ? Does a complete motor move when it dont flip point- it wouldnt take much movement of motor to translate to no movement of point ? cheers, Simon >Was just wondering if motors are fixed to points via the tabs on motor case >or if their held to baseboard some other way ? Does a complete motor move >when it dont flip point- it wouldnt take much movement of motor to translate >to no movement of point ? Mounted through the baseboard and attached direct to the point, I have a 100% success ratio. When under the baseboard I am using the Peco mounting plates. I don't think that solenoid would be capable of flexing the motor frame if you put a million volts through it* but I could be wrong. * In which case it would of course be an ex motor, it has ceased to be. Guy Signaturehttp://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/ The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed to be worth the price paid. |
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