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Model Forum / General / Railroads / August 2010Crew
Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative fellows. Question is what colours for their clothes. I know NCB overalls were orange in the 70's, before that presume dark blue was the rage. I like light blue as they stand out in dark cab, but not right for around 1920. Charcoal grey with a white/grey shirt perhaps ? Black tie ? Any suggestions ? Cheers, Simon >Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of >Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Charcoal grey with a white/grey shirt perhaps ? Black tie ? >Any suggestions ? Victorian crews - at least up to the 1880s or so - would probably have been wearing moleskin trousers (dark in colour, shiny patches from wear). White jackets seem to have been popular with drivers - you see them in a lot of pictures from that time (and yes, the dirt showed..). Ties - no, but kerchiefs worn around the neck were common. Firemen - darker jackets. Overalls seem to have been a much later development (can't recall seeing them in pre-very late 1890s pictures). Drivers might well wear a bowler hat, fireman probably a cap. David Smith's book on the Glasgow & South Western included a large number of 19th century pictures showing crew: useful for this.  SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) >>Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of >>Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > David Smith's book on the Glasgow & South Western included a large number > of 19th century pictures showing crew: useful for this. Prompted me to check a few photos, there are indeed a few lighter coloured jackets on drivers so thanks for that, also checked cab interior in LNWR Liveries - India red, not black as had assumed ! Cheers, Simon <snip> > Prompted me to check a few photos, there are indeed a few lighter coloured > jackets on drivers so thanks for that, also checked cab interior in LNWR > Liveries - India red, not black as had assumed ! On p127 of Ken Hoole's 'An Illustrated History of N.E.R. Locomotives' there's a lovely shot of Class E (J71) No. 400 at Heaton in 1919. The crew member is wearing a flat cap and what may be overalls, or a jacket. If you look very closely you'll notice he's having a smoke! SignatureJades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web. nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > crew member is wearing a flat cap and what may be overalls, or a > jacket. If you look very closely you'll notice he's having a smoke! Thanks but LNWR top link drivers like their engines were a cut above those :-) Cheers, Simon >>>Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of >>>Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Cheers, > Simon Now its a case of finding something approaching Indian red, no need to be too accurate as who the heck knows what it should look like ! http://www.londongraphics.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Winton_Oil_Colour_200m l_tubes_77.html - about half way down. Cheers, Simon [...] > Now its a case of finding something approaching Indian red, no need to > be too accurate as who the heck knows what it should look like ! I recall the colour from those wonderful Winsor & Newton paintboxes... Mix a bit of scarlet into burnt sienna. Just enough to make it definitely red rather than reddish brown (or brownish red.) wolf k. > [...] >> Now its a case of finding something approaching Indian red, no need to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rather than reddish brown (or brownish red.) > wolf k. Thanks, but going to have a problem with base paints. Local toy shop does have Winsor & Newton paints so might get exact one else will be using humbrol enamels or limited range of acrylics.Tried acrylic rust with buffer beam red and seems close if a bit dark, might get some red brown (enamel 100). Cheers, Simon >>>Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of >>>Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> David Smith's book on the Glasgow & South Western included a large >> number of 19th century pictures showing crew: useful for this. > Prompted me to check a few photos, there are indeed a few lighter > coloured jackets on drivers so thanks for that, also checked cab > interior in LNWR Liveries - India red, not black as had assumed ! http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/GoodsLocos/ex008P.php is a good 'un as a picture of crew (crewe crew? ;), as is: http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/GoodsLocos/ex059P.php which points up the lack of uniformity of those days! Looking at as many old pictures as I could find (in various Oakwood publications, in the 1950s reprints of Ahrons, in Smith, plus a fair few I had copied from collections in the national library..) a few common themes emerge: Military- or naval-style jackets were common (military-style more so) - this probably partially Victorian military chic, partially ex-serviceman wearing their old jackets, partially that such tight short jackets were more practical on the footplate. These almost always show as dark in pictures (if they were old uniforms then they were either rifles' green or dyed dark - I've not seen anything that looks the same shade as line regiment red appears in contemporary pictures..). Naval- or seaman's style "pea" or "pilot" jackets were not uncommon either - these would almost certainly have been dark blue or black. Light (white!) jackets (and trousers) were far from unknown - maybe in about 1/4 to 1/5 of the pictures.. Waistcoats were very common. Several pictures of firemen in shirt sleeves and waistcoat. Headgear varied. Military-style caps were common (in the 1900s there was a brief appearance of slouch hats - Australian bush hats - in pictures of footplace crews: Boer war chic!). Peaked naval-style caps also appeared. Short top hats and bowlers were common at one time. The cloth cap seems to have come in from the 1890s in a big way - maybe cycling and early motoring made it fashionable (early aviators wore 'em, too...). And there were always exceptions. A photograph of a Caledonian locomotive shows a fireman in Guernsey and knitted cap who seems to have wandered off a nearby fishing boat.. >>>>Thought would make some progress on loco kit so have chosen a couple of >>>>Victorian white metal figures - only a few years out cos conservative [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > shows a fireman in Guernsey and knitted cap who seems to have wandered > off a nearby fishing boat.. Thanks for that, the variety is especially interesting and useful. Have to reconsider the colours after realising the inside cab colour. The lighter/white jackets are especially suprising considering the environment - goods locos ! cheers, Simon > "Andy Breen" <azb@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message /chomp/ > Thanks for that, the variety is especially interesting and useful. Have > to reconsider the colours after realising the inside cab colour. The > lighter/white jackets are especially suprising considering the > environment - goods locos ! It surprised (and still surprises) me, too. I guess it's part of the early-steam-railway thing where the driver of an engine - any engine - was a Big Man Indeed[1]. This would have faded through the later 19th century as the driver became just another low-status employee. But in the earlier days (and so long as the memory of those days endured) there'd be a tendency to dress up for the job. Of course, it could also be that "best" was hauled out for the photographs! e.g. George Stephenson's brother being employed by the S&D as a driver. > Thanks for that, the variety is especially interesting and useful. > Have to reconsider the colours after realising the inside cab colour. > The lighter/white jackets are especially suprising considering the > environment - goods locos ! Undyed cotton, it might appear a silly choice but it as a cloth was just about as inexpensive as you could get. I suspect that that was the reason why drivers and firemen were provided with it. Afterall they were stuck up at the front of the train where paying passengers couldn't see them, who cares (from the bosses point of view) who see's them. SignatureAll the best, Chris >> Thanks for that, the variety is especially interesting and useful. Have >> to reconsider the colours after realising the inside cab colour. The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stuck up at the front of the train where paying passengers couldn't see > them, who cares (from the bosses point of view) who see's them. Pretty sure that until well past that time drivers and firemen weren't provided with /any/ clothing by the railway. The reason for the huge variation in what crew were wearing was because these were their own clothes. I'm trying to recall the details, but there's something scratching at me that it wasn't until as late as the 1900s that railway companies started to provided overalls for footplate crew. It may even have been later. >> Thanks for that, the variety is especially interesting and useful. >> Have to reconsider the colours after realising the inside cab colour. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > at the front of the train where paying passengers couldn't see them, who > cares (from the bosses point of view) who see's them. Not so sure about that, as servants of the railway, passengers may not have noticed them unless there had been running problems. Theres a story in one book where the driver had serious difficulties providing a smooth ride due to defective brakes, at the end of the journey he went along the platform apologising to passengers in the hope that no one would complain - had they done so he would have been disciplined. Cheers, Simon |
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