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Model Forum / General / Railroads / August 2010LMS Twins
Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but now its serious with LMS twins ! If it was just Hattons then would swallow something and go for it, but now its Hattons with Dapol or Rails with Bachmann. Now Dapol are due Feb 2011 but Bachmann early 2012. Then again this is Bachmann we are talking about so it could be ..... Bachmann price is reasonable but assume Dapol is similar. Unless either do something daft - not unknown - then quality/accuracy equivalent but dont know till arrive. For me will be Rails of course, but how would others decide ? Should it be pre-ordered allowing for wanting the LMS one. As an aside, it does seem with so many limited editions of new types the development costs of new locos has dropped even if its only for boxes (ok diesels), the numbers produced seems very low. realise that some locos are only with original seller for short while, but manufacturer is having to wait extra time before getting development costs bac. cheers, Simon > Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, > but now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > cheers, > Simon I like this line from Rails.... "We have been given invaluable assistance from a gentleman who worked on the construction of the Twins at Derby and he has supplied a huge number of photographs that have identified many differences and changes that are not documented elsewhere, even in the most authoritative of publications." It is a poke in the eye answer to give to rivet counters criticising some miniscule detail of your model. Dezzi >> Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, >> but now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Dezzi Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined "not documented elsewhere, even in the most authoritative of publications." [...] > Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined "not > documented elsewhere, even in the most > authoritative of publications." Did you use shift - underline _like this_? cheers, wolf k. > [...] >> Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined "not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > cheers, wolf k. No, I had underlined a whole sentence. I had composed it in MS Word and cut and pasted it, but the formatting wasn't retained. Dezzi >> [...] >>> Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined "not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No, I had underlined a whole sentence. I had composed it in MS Word > and cut and pasted it, but the formatting wasn't retained. Usenet is designed to be a plain text only medium, so all of your formatting is automatically stripped. In any case, useful retention of styling information when using the clipboard is hit and miss in general - even between MS Office applications - and not to be relied on. Some pointers for how to imply emphasis on certain things on usenet:- _This is underlined_ /This is in italics/ *This is bold* It's generally best, if you really /have/ to emphasise something to keep the 'highlighted' block short to maintain readablility. Note that 'SHOUTING' (typing normal words in block capitals) is considered bad form by most people and can be tricky to read. HTH!  SignatureJades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web. nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address! >>> [...] >>>> Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > *This is bold* Ahh, gotcha, Cheers, Dezzi. SNIP >> It is a poke in the eye answer to give to rivet counters criticising >> some miniscule detail of your model. SNIP >> Dezzi >> > Hmm, that never came out as I composed it, I had underlined "not > documented elsewhere, even in the most > authoritative of publications." Accept its still marketing but Dick Flower of rails and MRemag fame appears an honourable chap. However it doesnt show up on nearly all photos then being interested in essence rather than rivetts, not too fussed about that. cheers, Simon > SNIP >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > cheers, > Simon I wasn't referring to Rails or Dick Flower or anything in the context of the article it was in, I was simply saying that "differences and changes that are not documented elsewhere" is a good reply to someone who is saying your model doesn't resemble the prototype. Dezzi. >> SNIP >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Dezzi. Apologies if seemed that way, wasnt intending to suggest you were. I wonder if Mr Flower said it to get people to wait for Rails one or to delay Dapol by sending them scurrying back to photos and a modified design :-) Cheers, Simon > Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but > now its serious with LMS twins ! [...] > As an aside, it does seem with so many limited editions of new types the > development costs of new locos has dropped even if its only for boxes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cheers, > Simon Limited editions of locomotives are possible because they vary mostly in livery and details. The former are relatively easy to vary these days, the latter are cheaper than they used to be because details are nowadays add-on parts. If the variation is merely the loco's name and number, it's very cheap to make it. That's why some dealers/wholesalers can arrange to have exclusive limited editions. That being said, the numbers produced depend more and more on the pre-orders. Dealers will order a number on spec, but even so, minimum production will have to be a couple gross, but two gross (188 pieces) may be a large number for a special edition locomotive with limited appeal. Over-ordering specialised items over here in the past resulted in sell-offs of surplus stock at below wholesale prices, and an expectation that if you waited long enough, you could buy your favourite loco at a bargain price. Well, that's no longer the case. Here, limited editions have become almost entirely a matter of pre-orders: if the maker doesn't get enough, then the item is cancelled. Conversely, the number made will be very close to the number pre-ordered, so that if you didn't pre-order, you may not get the item at all. Eg, a recent production of CPRail cabooses was sold out before it even arrived in Canada.(One of my customers wanted one as soon as he saw it, but by then it was too late, all the ones I had were spoken for.) I'll wager the same trend will show up in the UK, if it hasn't already. So if you want the LMS one, my advice is pre-order it. cheers, wolf k. >> Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but >> now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > very cheap to make it. That's why some dealers/wholesalers can arrange to > have exclusive limited editions. Thinking more of the recent cases where theres only one run of the loco type and thats it. > That being said, the numbers produced depend more and more on the > pre-orders. Dealers will order a number on spec, but even so, minimum [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > cheers, > wolf k. Never keen on the first run, thats when more serious problems are likely to show up - same with software, always wait a few months before upgrading. However, as you say, if want LMS and thats only certain in first run, then will have to take it. Cheers, Simon <snip> > Limited editions of locomotives are possible because they vary mostly in > livery and details. The former are relatively easy to vary these days, > the latter are cheaper than they used to be because details are nowadays > add-on parts. I wonder how whoever it is that's bringing out the Q6 will handle the vacuum ejector pipe - only the preserved one ever had one and IIRC that was fitted less than ten years ago (Dad and I saw them working on it). Considering that the manufacturers are really scraping the bottom of the diesel barrel now I'd expect to see quite a few pre-grouping designs coming through in the next year or so. SignatureJades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web. nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the diesel barrel now I'd expect to see quite a few pre-grouping > designs coming through in the next year or so. Dont know about pre-grouping, you would be lucky to put together a pre 1935 layout with RTR - in LMS at least. Got a range of locos but not with correct livery. Are they doing the ROD in anything other than BR ? Cheers, Simon >> Considering that the manufacturers are really scraping the bottom of >> the diesel barrel now I'd expect to see quite a few pre-grouping >> designs coming through in the next year or so. > >Dont know about pre-grouping, you would be lucky to put together a pre 1935 >layout with RTR - in LMS at least. Bring back the Hornby 2P and Deeley 3F ! I have an original "Midlander" set in the loft for which I repainted first-of-class no. 3775 in 1907 goods red and a IIRC 2P de-rebuilt to Johnson condition with Plastikard, in lined Midland crimson lake :) Also a 43775 in black and (not R-T-R) a whitemetal Kirtley 0-6-0 (K's?). Reliable old chassis, those Triang-Hornby 0-6-0's ! Have a part built Johnson 2-4-0 as well somewhere ... Nick SignatureSerendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 >Plastikard, in lined Midland crimson lake :) Also a 43775 in black and >(not R-T-R) a whitemetal Kirtley 0-6-0 (K's?). OH yeah - and those brass outside cranks are a *sod* to quarter ... Nick SignatureSerendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 >>> Considering that the manufacturers are really scraping the bottom of >>> the diesel barrel now I'd expect to see quite a few pre-grouping [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Nick Most of my kit built ex LNWR and Midland are in 1920's livery, but if its RTR then its around 1935. Dont you have a crimson Compound - isnt that in Midland livery ? CHeers, Simon >> Bring back the Hornby 2P and Deeley 3F ! I have an original "Midlander" >> set in the loft for which I repainted first-of-class no. 3775 in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >RTR then its around 1935. Dont you have a crimson Compound - isnt that in >Midland livery ? Don't have a Compound, no. I had the two MR locos since I was a lad, so I kind of settled on 1907 as that is when 3775 was built so it could be no earlier. The 1907 Compounds were very different looking, much more Edwardian beasts. It was a great period for the modeller as it was a time of changeover in centuries, CMEs, operating practice, and design styles (even livery). So loads of opportunity for bashing R-t-R around on my favourite railway :) The MR R-T-R bodyshells were a great base for detailing and rebuilding into related locos for the novice we all started as ... Nick SignatureSerendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 <snip> > Dont know about pre-grouping you would be lucky to put together a pre > 1935 layout with RTR - in LMS at least. Got a range of locos but not > with correct livery. It's a bit better with LNER in general, the Gresley LNER Group Standard designs have been particularly well covered by Bachmann but there isn't a great deal of pre-grouping stuff. Regarding livery, LNER modellers are somewhat more fortunate as after the 1928 painting economies the liveries remained the same until during WW2. Isn't an additional complication with the LMS that big renumbering scheme they did around the 30s? On Thorpe Thewles (a station near Stockton, LNER 1923-1939) we have the following RTR engines that would fit a pre-1935 period:- K3 no. 2934, the one on which Bachmann forgot most of the lining. That particular engine went to traffic in September 1934 but the tooling is good for ones built after No. 135 in February 1925. J39 no. 1467, this is actually a repainted BR one but I think Bachmann have brought them out in LNER livery before. Class introduced 1926. While our V1 No. 466 is a Wills / Nu-Cast kit, Bachmann have brought this engine out RTR before. To traffic October 1936, but class introduced 1930. A1 No. 4475 Flying Fox. Hornby with Great Northern tender, condition as modelled covers period September 1934 - June 1935 and March 1937 - February 1942 if I've interpreted the table in RCTS 2A correctly. A3 No. 2505 Cameronian. Hornby (Ringfield). To traffic October 1934, originally had 'New-Type' non-corridor tender, GN tender after November 1936. I have a sneaky feeling that Hornby made ours with a corridor tender, which would be incorrect, but it's been a while since I've seen it. Everything else is kit-built, mainly Dave Alexander ones. The only NER engine available RTR is Bachmann's J72 and the chassis is well overdue a re-work even if you don't use DCC. Hornby is the usual story of random shunters or huge pacifics and nothing in between. Someone's brought out an N2, in GNR livery. Looks lovely, but even if they did it in LNER livery it's out of region for us. Rather have a G5. > Are they doing the ROD in anything other than BR ? Bachmann are listing it under catalogue ref. 31-003, the livery being LNER black (number on cab) which is good for roughly 1928-1939 or possibly longer depending on when it got repainted during WW2. Its number of 6190 is good for roughly 1924-1946. I suspect it's one of the Great Central ones, and I'm not familiar enough with the class to comment on the detail on the actual model. They're also listing a GWR version under catalogue number 31-129 but no release date as yet. Bachmann's Era scheme is bollocks anyway, Era 3 covers at least four reasonably long-lived LNER livery periods (24-28, 28-39ish, WW2, post-WW2) and it's daft seeing the A2 'A. H. Peppercorn' lumped in the same period as the Robinson O4. SignatureJades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web. nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > post-WW2) and it's daft seeing the A2 'A. H. Peppercorn' lumped in the > same period as the Robinson O4. Era scheme also has the problem of trying to remember which era is which. Ignoring the initial experiments and partial cover ups of pre-1928, there were 4 different sets of standard liveries on LMS until 1948. The insignia colours changed so wether a loco was Red, lined or plain black didnt matter. Suspect theres only a Crab and Fowler 4P tank RTR in pre-1935 as they were first produced in LMS red then changed to lined black when repainted after 1930. Cheers, Simon Cheers, Simon >> Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but >> now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > cheers, > wolf k. The last time I checked, 1000 was about the minimum run which could justify a new mold. A limited paint run would probably be about the 188 you mention. Mold variations by way of inserts (different grills, smokebox doors etc) have been in use for the last couple of decades, but then you're back to 1000+ to make molding machine setup worthwhile. Greg.P. >>> Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but >>> now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Greg.P. Although presume that doesnt include initial research/design costs. Suspect these are the costs that have dropped as more use made of computers and some design now outsourced to cheapo labour. Cheers, Simon >>>> Was a spectator on the early tussle as to who does a Blue thingy, but >>>> now its serious with LMS twins ! [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Suspect these are the costs that have dropped as more use made of > computers and some design now outsourced to cheapo labour. Back in Tri-ang days when molds were made by little men chipping train shapes out of blocks of sandstone the research costs probably weren't too high. Then we started to want the right number of wheels, actual holes were the windows might be etc and the designers had to look for plans and photos etc - greatly increased costs. Computers/CAD meant we could have wire handrails. CAD/CAM meant we could have mold variations and customers could demand them. Does getting things made in China actually reduce costs? Where the European manufacturers had gone to snap-together construction and lots of details loose in the bottom of the box the Chinese use self-tapper screws. Prices haven't come down. Seems to me the big change has been that model firms have been able to get rid of troublesome employees and sell off lots of real-estate. Greg.P. SNIP... > Back in Tri-ang days when molds were made by little men chipping > train shapes out of blocks of sandstone the research costs probably [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Greg.P. Difficult to compare prices, have to take into account inflation and quality - especially detail, will leave that to others. But didnt Hornby move production in order to survive. They needed to seriously upgrade their models very quickly in order to compete with bachmann - esp the new blue riband range. That meant they needed a lot of capital in a very short time frame - the chinese were making models for a number of companies. Economies of scale so able to invest more in new tooling and get back that money much faster than Hornby could have done in the limited market of the UK. CHeers, Simon > SNIP... >> Back in Tri-ang days when molds were made by little men chipping [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > new tooling and get back that money much faster than Hornby could have > done in the limited market of the UK. I guess the most logical comparison is with car companies, in that standards improve over the years. Some companies with enough turnover "improve" their models every 2-5 years. Smaller ones keep much the same model in production for 10-20 years. (eg Subaru) New products are introduced every x many years and the best seller gets minor improvements regularly. Everyone knows a major upgrade of the main products has to come at some point or the firm is a goner. Volkswagen in the mid70s was like Hornby and just about ran out of options. (we won't mention BLMC etc ;-) Hornby should have seen the market trends way back when Airfix/Mainline etc moved the standard so far above Hornby's. They could have introduced a model per year without selling their business. Moving production to China will come back to bite all these firms when Chinese wages and oil prices climb. >> SNIP... >>> Back in Tri-ang days when molds were made by little men chipping [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >etc moved the standard so far above Hornby's. They could have introduced >a model per year without selling their business. I agree. It was the appearance of Airfix and Mainline that got me back into the hobby. When I moved into my first house I unpacked boxes that had been packed away years earlier, including the model trains. I'd play with them but that was all. Even to my teenage eye a decade or so earlier they hadn't been very good. The Airfix prairie and 14xx were a breath of fresh air, and their carriages were orders of magnitude better than the thick plastic sides with flat glazing behind them. It puzzled me why Hornby didn't bother to compete. Although when the LBSCR 0-6-0T came out that was a bit better but still not up to the standard. And they destroyed the tooling to make Thomas. >Moving production to China will come back to bite all these firms when >Chinese wages and oil prices climb. >>> SNIP... >>>> Back in Tri-ang days when molds were made by little men chipping [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>Moving production to China will come back to bite all these firms when >>Chinese wages and oil prices climb. True about Hornby falling behind, but was it Hornby or the parent company ? The change to super detail didnt happen until after the management buy out. Moving of production may well become a problem, but had they not moved then there may not have been a Hornby brand now. Cheers, Simon |
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