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Model Forum / General / Railroads / September 2010RJ12 cables.
Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone have any idea why a similar plug with full 6 wire connections produces a fault? In my book redundant wiring should not pose any problems. > Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct > the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone > have any idea why a similar plug with full 6 wire connections produces > a fault? In my book redundant wiring should not pose any problems. Without knowing which pins are actually in use, from your description of 'inverted', I would suspect that the 3 active wires are actually going to unused pins at one end. Consider the case where pins 1 to 3 are in use, and at the other end pin 1 will go to 3, 2 to 2 , and 3 to 1. Now if you invert all 6 wires then 1 will go to 6, etc, and no connection will be made!! As I say without a fuller description of the pins in use, it might be the answer. Regards Jeff > > Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct > > the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Regards > Jeff That is simple to answer -- alternating pins are used. Say 1,3 &5. As the distant plug is inverted it puts the sequence in the correct order in order to enter it into the next unit or combining socket. This is why I wonder at the fault situation. >>> Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct >>> the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > order in order to enter it into the next unit or combining socket. > This is why I wonder at the fault situation. Are you saying that only pins 1,3 & 5 are used at both ends?? If that is the case then my assumption is correct; if you reverse the wires to all 6 pins and keep the sequence in the same (but reversed) colour order then pin 1 would go to pin 6 (not used), 3 to 5 (wrong pin), and 5 to 2 (not used)!!!! Regards Jeff >>>> Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct >>>> the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Regards > Jeff But if you can check the colours then you know the pins are in the correct sequence. Then you can check pin to pin connectivity and know your cabling is correct. Then you know you have misunderstood the connections. ;-) Cheers, Simon >> Are you saying that only pins 1,3 & 5 are used at both ends?? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Cheers, > Simon Indeed, but so far no one has actually posted the pin to pin sequence for each end!! All that has been said is that the connections are 'inverted'; unfortunately this can mean different things. If the colour sequence is kept the same at both ends but 'inverted' then pin 1 will go to pin 6 etc. with finally pin 6 going to pin 1. Is that the same sequence as when only 3 wire are in use??? Regards Jef > >> Are you saying that only pins 1,3 & 5 are used at both ends?? > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - There are 6 pins. The plugs are identical with a locating/locking tab which ensures correct entry. The departing plug (pin1 to the right) uses 1 red 3 green & 5 blue. At the other end the plug is inverted (this is RJ12 language). Regarding this plug in the same orientation as the departing one shows the same sequence. Each device whether Elite or Select has skts with the same orientation. This is the reason for the inversion. A similar but 6 wire cable is used to branch in the power booster unit (if used). The 3 wire unit is described by Hornby as a 4 wire unit -- my magnifying glass says otherwise! I have emailed Hornby and await a reply. Regards > There are 6 pins. The plugs are identical with a locating/locking tab > which ensures correct entry. The departing plug (pin1 to the right) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Regards It is the use if the word 'inverted' that is causing a problem (it is not RJ12 language, RJ12 cables normally come as straight through or cross-over). You have explained which pins are in use at the 'departing' end, but missed the critical bit of which pins are used at the other end!!! Which pins do the red, green and blue wires go to at the far end in a 3 wire cable? Your post says "Regarding this plug in the same orientation as the departing one shows the same sequence". By that do you mean that the red wire is on pin 1, green on 3 and blue on 5? If so in what way is this 'inverted', as it is wired pin to pin; ie straight-through!! Regards Jeff > > There are 6 pins. The plugs are identical with a locating/locking tab > > which ensures correct entry. The departing plug (pin1 to the right) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Regards > Jeff A straight through cable reverses the sequence such that pin 1 depart will arrive at pin6 of the other end ( which is also facing in the other direction from the departing plug. By rotating the distant plug through 180° the wires are now set at red to 1! My catalogues for UK Aus & US refer to reversed or inverted for such an arrangement. Straight through does indeed reverse the sequence. Hornby uses parallel connectors for extension leads which also leaves you with a live plug exposed(very unprofessional). I have through cable joiners which could be used with a straight through cables provided that the other one was "reversed". Regards On 4 sep, 18:14, Jeff <j...@jsystems.com> wrote: > > There are 6 pins. The plugs are identical with a locating/locking tab > > which ensures correct entry. The departing plug (pin1 to the right) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Regards > Jeff A straight through cable reverses the sequence such that pin 1 depart will arrive at pin6 of the other end ( which is also facing in the other direction from the departing plug. By rotating the distant plug through 180° the wires are now set at red to 1! My catalogues for UK Aus & US refer to reversed or inverted for such an arrangement. Straight through does indeed reverse the sequence. Hornby uses parallel connectors for extension leads which also leaves you with a live plug exposed(very unprofessional). I have through cable joiners which could be used with a straight through cables provided that the other one was "reversed". Regards ============================== Curious, in computing terms - presume these come from there - there is crossover and straight through. Crossover was to swap send and receive so pin 2 went to 3 and 3 to 2. Straight through was as expect, 2 to 2 and 3 to 3. Cheers, Simon > On 4 sep, 18:14, Jeff <j...@jsystems.com> wrote: >> > There are 6 pins. The plugs are identical with a locating/locking tab [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Cheers, > Simon Here you are, this sounds reasonable ..... http://www.hornby.com/forum/forum-thread.html?Pthread=com.othermedia.hornby.mode l.board.Thread-L-7661&Ptopic=com.othermedia.hornby.model.board.TopicHandle-L-4&p ageNo=2 Cheers, Simon > On 4 sep, 18:14, Jeff <j...@jsystems.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - I wonder if I have bored the crap out of people yet! A straight through flat cable has two formats ( hence the confusion). 1. Each plug has it's locating tab uppermost and the cores run parallel. This has the effect of reversing the sequence at the receiving end. 2. The cores are not run parallel but crossed over enroute. This produces a receiving plug with the identical format to the sender. The normal way to make up the second is not to mess with internal crossovers but to simply rotate the receiving plug axially through 180° (the locater is now pointing down (not up like the sender). This is the Hornby cable format. I had read the Hornby Forum posting and queried the data as I can see only 3 cores in use (red, green and blue). My fastest remedy will be to carefully destroy two of my commercial straight through extention connectors and make it into a test unit to determine the configuration. Why should I be fussed? The R8266 cable has disappeared from the online market place. My supplier in Toulouse will make up any configuration I desire - once I know what it is! > My fastest remedy will be to carefully destroy two of my commercial > straight through extention connectors and make it into a test unit to > determine the configuration. Surely the fastest way would be to use a test meter (or a psu and a light bulb) and determine exactly which pin connects to which in a working cable!!! As I said in my previous posts what is missing is the pin to pin layout of the cable. Regards Jeff On 4 sep, 22:59, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: > "Sailor" <apeterabra...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - I wonder if I have bored the crap out of people yet! A straight through flat cable has two formats ( hence the confusion). 1. Each plug has it's locating tab uppermost and the cores run parallel. This has the effect of reversing the sequence at the receiving end. 2. The cores are not run parallel but crossed over enroute. This produces a receiving plug with the identical format to the sender. The normal way to make up the second is not to mess with internal crossovers but to simply rotate the receiving plug axially through 180° (the locater is now pointing down (not up like the sender). This is the Hornby cable format. I had read the Hornby Forum posting and queried the data as I can see only 3 cores in use (red, green and blue). My fastest remedy will be to carefully destroy two of my commercial straight through extention connectors and make it into a test unit to determine the configuration. Why should I be fussed? The R8266 cable has disappeared from the online market place. My supplier in Toulouse will make up any configuration I desire - once I know what it is! =================================================== Nope not bored cos intend to get cable myself. My goodness, you must have been in france too long, its very complicated the way you describe things ;-) Can we start from .... If you look at the connectors end on next to each other and at the same orientation ....if was d connector then |) |) the pins are numbered in an identical sequence even if one is male and the other female. Could you describe if crossover or straight through from this ? Cheers, Simon > Nope not bored cos intend to get cable myself. > My goodness, you must have been in france too long, its very complicated [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheers, > Simon In 'normal' speak a straight-through cable is wired pin 1 to pin1, pin 2 to pin 2, etc. A cross-over cable is wired so that it will function when plugged in a a certain application, and does not always mean that the pin numbering is just simply reversed, such as a null-modem cable where for example tx and Rx data pins are swapped, but others such as Ground are not. The complication with RJ12 and the like are that connectors are available that allow flat cable to be used and still be wired 'straight-through' pin to pin. The attaching of the cable to the connector may be 'inverted' but the pin connections are not!!! Reagrds Jeff > On 4 sep, 22:59, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - OK! RJ12 plugs (free plugs which connect to flat or round cable ) are all male. Sockets are female and generally live in an equipment enclosure. In this case (Hornby) they have used the lenz arrangement so that all equipment ( Elite, select and power boost module) uses identical sockets. Now , if you have two RJ12 plugs and a length of flat wire and you number pins from left to right when looking into the plug from the free end and then repeat this at the other end (locating lugs being both upwards) then the pin1 of the left plug will appear at pin 6 of the right. This to me and US & French suppliers is called "through connected". Every conductor will have appeared on a different pin. The way this is overcome is to rotate one plug axially thriugh 180° thus the plug still faces away from the cable but the locking tab is now downwards. The conducter leaving on No1 pin now arrives on No1 pin the other end. If you have an Elite unit there should be an R8266 with it (4 core) . The R8236 is 6 core for the R8239 power booster. Now I have to butcher my through connectors because I neither have prods small enough or eyes good enough to fart about inside of an 8mm wide aperture containing 6 contacts 0.2 mm apart! I notice that the 8266 has reappeared on the Hornby site! What is much easier is for someone to come up with an answer! It is so much cheaper on the open market 1€25 compared with 5.5 GBP. On 5 sep, 12:34, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: > "Sailor" <apeterabra...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - OK! RJ12 plugs (free plugs which connect to flat or round cable ) are all male. Sockets are female and generally live in an equipment enclosure. In this case (Hornby) they have used the lenz arrangement so that all equipment ( Elite, select and power boost module) uses identical sockets. Now , if you have two RJ12 plugs and a length of flat wire and you number pins from left to right when looking into the plug from the free end and then repeat this at the other end (locating lugs being both upwards) then the pin1 of the left plug will appear at pin 6 of the right. This to me and US & French suppliers is called "through connected". Every conductor will have appeared on a different pin. The way this is overcome is to rotate one plug axially thriugh 180° thus the plug still faces away from the cable but the locking tab is now downwards. The conducter leaving on No1 pin now arrives on No1 pin the other end. If you have an Elite unit there should be an R8266 with it (4 core) . The R8236 is 6 core for the R8239 power booster. Now I have to butcher my through connectors because I neither have prods small enough or eyes good enough to fart about inside of an 8mm wide aperture containing 6 contacts 0.2 mm apart! I notice that the 8266 has reappeared on the Hornby site! What is much easier is for someone to come up with an answer! It is so much cheaper on the open market 1€25 compared with 5.5 GBP. =============================================== Sorry, but this is a uk newsgoup so you must use the uk convention :-) Actually am suprised US is different as most of the PC/Comms stuff for computing comes from there ..... Anyway, checked spec on lenz site - manuals. http://www.lenz.com/techinfo/index.htm Scroll down to the diagram. You can see its quite specific with 4 connected wires and straight through, not a crossover in sight (in uk description terms). Actually it seems US describes same as straight through ! Note the description for data wires :- "One must pay particular attention to the orientation of the A and B-lines. Exchanging these leads will result in no data communication" Although it doesnt say it, you shouldnt cross ground and 12 volts for obvious reasons. Cheers, Simon > On 5 sep, 12:34, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 171 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - Thanks for the Lenz data ; they run from DIN to RJ12. Interestingly they show a 6 core with unused 1&6. Now that I have managed to check my R8266 4 core flat cables I find that they are in fact 6 core R8236s (sold as 8266). The two that I have in use work fine ( with the exception that the handheld units seem to have direct speed control rather than the incremental acc & decc of the main unit. The new cable is identical to the Hornbys in every way but shows every evidence of a reversal of lines 3&4 despite the normal power up and the fact that my testset says it is not reversed. An 6P4A RJ cable is rightly an RJ11. My Toulousian expert has now gone to great lengths to explain that a cable with a male RJ at both ends where the cores appear in the same sequence 1-6 is called tout droit (straight through) but the plugs are mounted one up and one down! The arrangement with both plugs in the plane is referred to as croisé or crossed. I still await a reply from Hornby regarding why merely plugging in one end of an RJ cable should block the comms. Reading back through several forums produces a long list of DIY chaps who have hit snags ,sometimes due to terminology but more often to equipment intolerance. > On 4 sep, 18:14, Jeff <j...@jsystems.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Cheers, > Simon That's RS232 wiring, a completely different beast. In that case the cables were as described but the equipment could be either DTE or DCE. A lot of people ignore that and end up with crossover cables or "null modem" or "gender bender" connectors. MBQ On Sep 4, 9:59 pm, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: > "Sailor" <apeterabra...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Cheers, > Simon That's RS232 wiring, a completely different beast. In that case the cables were as described but the equipment could be either DTE or DCE. A lot of people ignore that and end up with crossover cables or "null modem" or "gender bender" connectors. MBQ ==================================== Very true, but then from the lenz description it seems these are the same apart from physical side of course. Cheers, Simon > Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct > the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone > have any idea why a similar plug with full 6 wire connections produces > a fault? In my book redundant wiring should not pose any problems. This the official reply from Hornby regarding my problem: Hello Peter, You are being replied to from .. help.dcc@hornby.com ...this is Hornby DCC Support Did you email previously? Sorry I do not have any emails from you re the issue. .. The following should clarify the situation.. Get back to me if you require further information.. etc Kenn HH DCC Support R8236??? The SELECT “walkabout” when used with the ELITE with the supplied cable (R8236) may occasionally suffer communications errors. This issue appeared after the initial trial were made. It is due to local electrical conditions within/external the cable. Also, it is important to connect walkabouts in the correct way.. it is not ideal to daisy chain walkabouts.. please see the diagram attached for more information. The issue of communications errors was resolved by a new cable (R8266) this cable has a different configuration. I will send you a replacement cables. .. Hornby R8266.. this is a 3m 4 conductor cable.. the conductors are arranged in 2 pairs and DO NOT follow the standard pattern as used in RJ11/12 IT cables. See diagram below. The diagram is for illustration only and appears shows flat profile cable.. the R8266 actually uses a round profile cable. You can extend this cable.. i.e. connect several together using the standard type end to end extender/adapter.. You can get these from Maplin Electronics (UK) and other electrical/IT stores. .. The XpressNet interface is based on the RS485 standard and should be good for up to 3000 feet !! In practice I have checked the SELECT communication under ideal cable conditions for 100 feet. .. Some users make up their own cables.. using the configuration info above. .. -----Original Message----- From: apeterabraham@aol.com [mailto:apeterabraham@aol.com] Sent: 06 September 2010 09:54 To: Help DCC Subject: Form submission from your website: Customer Care Enquiry Type: Technical Support ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Name: Peter ABRAHAM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Email: apeterabraham@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Membership Number (if applicable): Not provided ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: Ref HA 37626 Having brought in the hard of seeing kit I have discovered that both of my "4" wire cables R8266 are in fact 6 wire R8236. No matter, they work fine with two walkabout units as I had surmised. It being difficult to obtain these easily I picked up a new 6 wire RJ12 cable through my IT supplier. This cable is identical to the 8236 and each core shows continuity and is insulated from it's siblings! The simple act of plugging it into the Elite unit stops all commands (but no fault condition). If it is also inserted into the walkabout then CE shows up followed by continuous flashing of the red lamp. Is there something ridiculously banal which I have overlooked? SNIP The XpressNet interface is based on the RS485 standard and should be good for up to 3000 feet !! SNIP Does it match the lenz drawing ? They say its good for 3000 feet. Cheers, Simon > SNIP > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Cheers, > Simon Yes it does. The surprise is that unlike Lenz the round cable is to all appearances a flat one but with the cores in a different sequence. Anyway it is nice to learn that they too have had problems and their offer is very generous in my view. Regards Peter A >> SNIP >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Peter A They are good in that respect, tend to admit things and do their best to sort them out - not like a certain other company :-) Cheers, Simon > > Hornby use 3 wire, 6 contact RJ 12 plug and wire cables. To correct > > the polarity each end is fitted with it's plug inverted. Does anyone [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - Sat 18 Sept True to his word a R8266 cable landed in my letterbox this morning from Kenn at Hornby. The cable is round (like lenz) and works perfectly through an extension connector. Well played Hornby! Peter a Montarlot |
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