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Looking for large hull construction ideas

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William - 25 Mar 2005 21:16 GMT
I'm hoping to start work on a large warship hull by this
summer and I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas
or techniques. The hull will be a bit under 8' long, 11"
wide and around 7" deep I think. Might have some
tumblehome near the stern.

In the past I've used a bulkhead and "planking" method,
plus fiberglass and epoxy resin. (As an intermediate
coat I like to use a self-leveling epoxy like that stuff used
on tabletops and industrial-strength decopage. If you
pour CO2 on it before it cures to pop any small bubbles,
and sand almost until it's gone, it makes a nearly glass-
smooth surface.)

What I'd end up with is a hull with ribs, buried balsa and
plywood strips, etc. I'm think this time I should use that as
a plug to make a fiberglass mold and then mold a much
room-ier and more durable hull from that. This is where
I'm looking for advice. Anyone had any experience with
the process? Any pitfalls?

One thing I thought of trying was to paint the plug with a
layer (1/4" or so) of silicone rubber, leaving a lot of "knobs"
on the outside, then fiberglass a supporting shell over
that. Seems to me that would produce a nice mold
surface with self-releasing properties. (I have a fear of
having the attempt to create a mold damage the plug
and lose weeks of work.)

Thanks for any suggestions.
NELCON - 27 Mar 2005 01:11 GMT
> I'm hoping to start work on a large warship hull by this
> summer and I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas
> or techniques. The hull will be a bit under 8' long, 11"
> wide and around 7" deep I think. Might have some
> tumblehome near the stern.

Link to "Warship Models Underway" message board.

http://members.boardhost.com/wmunderway/

The Scale Shipyard may have the fiberglass hull you want already made,
or know someone who has it:

http://scaleshipyard.com/

NelstoneB
William - 27 Mar 2005 07:00 GMT
>> I'm hoping to start work on a large warship hull by this
>> summer and I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> http://scaleshipyard.com/

Thanks for the links. I'm familiar with the Scale Shipyard - in fact, I
was reading an article on how they prepare their plugs and molds
the other day. (Hadn't thought to design in some allowance for
shrinkage of the mold and molded hull - that was useful info.)

I've lusted after their 1/96th scale U.S.S. North Carolina for many
years. (My parents took me to visit that ship in Wilmington, NC,
several times as a child when we lived at Camp Lejeune.)

But the hull I'm planning is a 1/48th scale U.S.S. Olympia and I
don't think anyone's got one of those. (Besides, I can build it
myself for 1/3 the cost of a commercial hull - maybe 3/4ths
the cost if I go the molded hull route instead of using the built
up one. Also, I rather enjoy the work.)

The link to the Warship Models Underway site is really interesting.
I'll have to peruse that one quite a bit.

This project is actually easier than the last one of this size I did;
a 1/24th scale patrol gunboat, about 15 years ago. (Here's the
type: http://www.gunboatriders.com/theboats/general_spec.html)
I didn't have a set of cross sections so I had to scale up
drawings made from a 15" long plastic model. Hand-drawing each
bulkhead lost its appeal after about the tenth one. (I'm considering
scanning them this time and having them laser-cut, but that does
seem like a cheat.)

The neatest thing about that one was the beautiful bow wave it
cast when running at speed - a perfectly solid sheet of water
peeling off the bows. The Olympia's not going to have that
effect, I'm sure - all those rivet heads and plate seams :-)

Thanks again for the links. -Wm
DiezMon - 18 Apr 2005 19:51 GMT
William,

I built a similar sized ship.   It's an 8' Spruance.
http://webpages.charter.net/timdiez/spruance/index.html

I ended up blowing up plans as you'd mentioned, using an overhead projector
to build the bulkheads and other detail pieces.  I then sheathed it with
balsa, followed by fiberglass.

So, I'm curious, do you intend to make more than one.. or sell them later
on?  Just curious, because if you're just building one you could still use
the above method.

Otherwise, It seems it would be fairly straightforward to build the master
hull, get it as smooth and error free as possible, then simply make a mold
of that using fiberglass.  I think you'd want to build some "reverse"
bulkheads to put around the mold once you're done, so you can hold it's
shape while the glass cures when you make future molds.  Isn't this how they
manufacture real fiberglass boats?  Although, they may use a plug as well...
I dunno ;)

The only thing I'd be worried about(with your suggestion below) is getting
you're silicon layer as perfectly smooth as you'd like.  It seems to me
you're better off molding directly off of your master hull, and use a
release agent on that.

Have you thought about building using bulkheads and sheathing, but make the
bulkheads easy to remove after your glass shell is over the entire hull?
Either way, you're going to need some supporting structure inside the hull
to hold it's shape in a ship of that size.  Fiber glass is very strong, and
very flexible.. so you'll need some additional strength in there.

Ok, just some ideas... :)

Tim

> I'm hoping to start work on a large warship hull by this
> summer and I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
William - 19 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT
> William,
>
> I built a similar sized ship.   It's an 8' Spruance.
> http://webpages.charter.net/timdiez/spruance/index.html

Very nice!

Similar in lines to the patrol gunboat hull I built but that didn't have
the "bulb" at the bow - different scale, but similar finished size.

You're much braver than I, though. I didn't trust my carving skills to
do an entire bow that way. I used stripwood up to the last inch or
so and only carved that last bit. (And cheated on some of that, using
Epoxolite putty smoothed to nearly the final shape with a wet finger.)

I'm glad to see someone else thought heavy poly tubing could be
useful as a universal joint.  (The propellors are gorgeous, by the way.)

> I ended up blowing up plans as you'd mentioned, using an overhead
> projector
> to build the bulkheads and other detail pieces.

I lucked out with a set already to scale for the tricky bits (and half-scale
for the rest). Just need to adjust for sheathing thickness. (Probably 1/8"
thick - that gives me some sanding and support margin.)

> So, I'm curious, do you intend to make more than one.. or sell them later
> on?  Just curious, because if you're just building one you could still use
> the above method.

Mainly I wanted a hull without too many bulkheads (and, maybe, the option
of making a backup copy just in case). I figured to gain structural strength
by adding fiberglass "box beams" following the curve like bulkheads,
but needing to intrude less into the spaces than flat bulkheads. (I'd start
by gluing flexible foam "bars" to the hull, then fiberglass over them,
perhaps
with a ribbon of graphite on the inner surface for rigidty.) Maybe also use
four full bulkheads and some stringers to add strength fore-and-aft. (The
stringers could serve as supports for equipment trays too.)

> I think you'd want to build some "reverse"
> bulkheads to put around the mold once you're done, so you can hold it's
> shape while the glass cures when you make future molds.

Yeah, the same way I'd make the interior ones, probably, but maybe
releasable from the mold's shell so I can flex it a bit to free the hull.
(I'm thinking it might pay to experiment on a smaller, simpler hull first.
I've been looking around to see if I could find a steam tug of about
the right period - it'd be useful as an accessory and a rescue boat
as well.)

> The only thing I'd be worried about(with your suggestion below) is getting
> you're silicon layer as perfectly smooth as you'd like.  It seems to me
> you're better off molding directly off of your master hull, and use a
> release agent on that.

I'm a little concerned about getting it out since there are some reverse
curves to deal with. I thought the silicone layer would provide a little
wiggle room, literally. I believe I can smooth it out by working carefully,
using a thin first coat and a second, heavier, coat. Smooth-on's got
a variety of types, curing times, etc. (It will stick to itself, but I'd
have
to test to see if it resists delaminating - that would kill the two coat
idea right there.)

Even at that I may end up having to do a two-part mold, port and starboard
shells. (Although a joint across the beam might be easier - much shorter
seam and probably easier to brace - and that would work about as well
in terms of release.)

I don't expect to decant a perfect hull - I'd anticipate some filling and
sanding to get the final finish. Being non-commercial that's no problem.
That does mean I wouldn't even think of trying to mold all the rivets :-)
(I am thinking the hull plate seams themselves might be worth trying for,
though.)

Just thinking about it all makes me tired :-)  -Wm
DiezMon - 19 Apr 2005 20:27 GMT
> You're much braver than I, though. I didn't trust my carving skills to
> do an entire bow that way. I used stripwood up to the last inch or
> so and only carved that last bit. (And cheated on some of that, using
> Epoxolite putty smoothed to nearly the final shape with a wet finger.)

Actually, it was easier than I'd hoped so it worked out well.  It was one
big square of balsa, then I cut the profile using a ban saw, after that I
carved like the wind!

> I'm glad to see someone else thought heavy poly tubing could be
> useful as a universal joint.  (The propellors are gorgeous, by the way.)

:)  Let's hope the poly can hold up to the torque.   I forget where I got
the props, it was like 4 years ago from a company in the UK.

> Yeah, the same way I'd make the interior ones, probably, but maybe
> releasable from the mold's shell so I can flex it a bit to free the hull.
> (I'm thinking it might pay to experiment on a smaller, simpler hull first.
> I've been looking around to see if I could find a steam tug of about
> the right period - it'd be useful as an accessory and a rescue boat
> as well.)

Bah! smaller-shmaller,  just GO for it!   LOL

> I'm a little concerned about getting it out since there are some reverse
> curves to deal with. I thought the silicone layer would provide a little
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to test to see if it resists delaminating - that would kill the two coat
> idea right there.)

Oh, so this stuff cures hard?  I was thinking it cured to be more
rubber-like.. which I could see being hard to get totally smooth.

> Even at that I may end up having to do a two-part mold, port and starboard
> shells. (Although a joint across the beam might be easier - much shorter
> seam and probably easier to brace - and that would work about as well
> in terms of release.

So, are you hoping your mold will include the top as well?   Or are you
thinking of just doing the sides?  Just doing sides would be much easier I'd
think.  Then you could do a two part, with the seam right down the middle..

> I don't expect to decant a perfect hull - I'd anticipate some filling and
> sanding to get the final finish. Being non-commercial that's no problem.
> That does mean I wouldn't even think of trying to mold all the rivets :-)
> (I am thinking the hull plate seams themselves might be worth trying for,
> though.)

Well you never know.. if you get your master nice and smooth, the mold
results should be the same..   I've done a lot of molding for my model
railroading hobby and believe me, you want the master to be about as perfect
as you can.  Making a mold and then having to tweak the results is a pain.
Although, it's not like you'll be making fifty of them.. or WILL you? ;)

> Just thinking about it all makes me tired :-)  -Wm

thinking about it makes me want to head out to my shop and get to work  LOL

Tim
William - 20 Apr 2005 02:29 GMT
>> I'm glad to see someone else thought heavy poly tubing could be
>> useful as a universal joint.  (The propellors are gorgeous, by the way.)
>
> :)  Let's hope the poly can hold up to the torque.   I forget where I got
> the props, it was like 4 years ago from a company in the UK.

Was it the Prop Shop? http://www.britnett.net/propshop/

One thing I found with the larger tubing is that if the tube collapses, it
will tend to "wind up" (this actually saved my prop when I ran over a
sand bar, but it's not conducive to smooth power transfer). Inserting
a short piece of plastic tube or rod into the joint tubing will help
prevent that. (It should be soft-ish and smooth, with rounded ends
to avoid abrading the inside of the tubing.)

>> I'm a little concerned about getting it out since there are some reverse
>> curves to deal with. I thought the silicone layer would provide a little
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Oh, so this stuff cures hard?  I was thinking it cured to be more
> rubber-like.. which I could see being hard to get totally smooth.

Well, rubbery, but not really soft. A little softer than a super ball,
maybe like a gum eraser? Except for bubbles, it will be as smooth
as the surface of the hull plug. (I know you can relieve bubbles to
some extent in epoxy by exposing it to CO2, but not sure if silicone
will do the same but it might. If not, careful brushing should be good
enough - I'll just call 'em rivets if they show up in the finished hull :-)

> So, are you hoping your mold will include the top as well?   Or are you
> thinking of just doing the sides?  Just doing sides would be much easier
> I'd
> think.  Then you could do a two part, with the seam right down the
> middle..

Just the sides, but there is some "tumblehome" from the waterline to
the deck - just like on the old square-riggers. I don't have the plan at
hand, but I think it's around 2-3" narrower at the deck than at the widest
part amidships. Splitting it down the middle is the obvious choice - I
can build a ridge of clay down the keel and lay up one side, then
remove the clay and do the other, with plenty of keying of course.

On the other hand, splitting it cross-wise would probably work too - I
can pull the mold halves off the ends. That would let me cast the bow
torpedo tube opening more easily as well. I'll probably decide once
I have the plug ready - might be some bumps I'm not seeing on the
plans or 17" model I have.

Heh, I once started a hull for the C.S.S. Virginia (never finished it
past the sheathing for some reason). That didn't have this problem
since the U.S.S. Merrimack had burned to the waterline there was
nothing to snag a mold. Very convenient.

> Making a mold and then having to tweak the results is a pain.
> Although, it's not like you'll be making fifty of them.. or WILL you? ;)

I doubt it. Maybe two or three. (Was there a sister ship to the
Olympia that used the same hull pattern? Hmm...) -Wm
clive - 29 Apr 2005 09:57 GMT
Some while ago while looking at model submarines on the internet I saw how
one or two people made their submarine hulls using the plug system.
Although I cant remember what the site was you may find it by searching
through Google.  Best of luck with it.

> I'm hoping to start work on a large warship hull by this
> summer and I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
Boat Hull Maker - 01 May 2005 10:33 GMT
> Some while ago while looking at model submarines on the internet I saw how
> one or two people made their submarine hulls using the plug system.
> Although I cant remember what the site was you may find it by searching
> through Google.  Best of luck with it.

Subcommittee, submarine committee, help you: http://www.subcommittee.com/
 
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